Why do I not count? I don't understand. Yeah, me and Angie just, we don't rate.
Standard of Truth · Season 5 · Episode 52 · 1:07:04
Dead and in Hell Part 9 (and the Bee Gees)
Brigham Young did say 'I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned,' but only after a federal judge stood up in a religious meeting and lectured the Saints on their patriotism.
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The question ·
What did Brigham Young actually say to Judge Brocchus about Zachary Taylor being dead and in hell?
Gerrit
Richard hosted 159 people at his Hanukkah party, and his music year-in-review reveals that his number one song is 'Massachusetts' by the Bee Gees, which he insists he has never heard. A missionary in Suriname writes in, and Gerrit tells of meeting a listener at Casa de Salsa in Spanish Fork. Then the series reaches its climax. Gerrit reads Judge Perry Brocchus's 1851 speech, which questioned the Saints' loyalty and lectured the women, and Brigham Young's angry reply: 'I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned.' Gerrit compares it with the hostile newspaper account, which added that Brigham and Heber C. Kimball each had 90 wives, and shows how the story grew.
Who comes upBrigham YoungPerry BrocchusZachary TaylorHeber C. KimballOrson HydeGeorge Washington
Now playing · 0:46
Happy Hanukkah
Richard's annual party drew 159 people, not counting Gerrit.
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348 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back, and happy Hanukkah.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back, and happy Hanukkah.
Gerrit Yes, Richard had his annual Hanukkah party just last night, in fact.
Gerrit Yes, Richard had his annual Hanukkah party just last night, in fact.
Richard I did, I did. It was a great time for Kith and Kin.
Richard I did, I did. It was a great time for Kith and Kin.
Gerrit I like the fact that Richard once told me that there were going to be a couple dozen people there, and I showed up, and there were, Angie and I legitimately, as we pulled into the parking lot, had a conversation. Do you think they're having it at a different church? Because this looks like a ward party, because there were dozens and dozens of cars in the parking lot. So then I'm thinking, well, maybe they're doing like something at the chapel at the same time that they're doing something in the gym. Nope, it was Richard's Hanukkah party, and it was with, I think, a hundred more people than he had anticipated.
Gerrit I like the fact that Richard once told me that there were going to be a couple dozen people there, and I showed up, and there were, Angie and I legitimately, as we pulled into the parking lot, had a conversation. Do you think they're having it at a different church? Because this looks like a ward party, because there were dozens and dozens of cars in the parking lot. So then I'm thinking, well, maybe they're doing like something at the chapel at the same time that they're doing something in the gym. Nope, it was Richard's Hanukkah party, and it was with, I think, a hundred more people than he had anticipated.
Richard It was. We had, I think, in total, 159 people, not counting you or the Hunts or a couple of other.
Richard It was. We had, I think, in total, 159 people, not counting you or the Hunts or a couple of other.
Gerrit Why do I not count? I don't understand. Yeah, me and Angie just, we don't rate.
Gerrit Why do I not count? I don't understand. Yeah, me and Angie just, we don't rate.
Richard We did the count before you arrived, you see. So it's the official count. So what was funny about it, it was great. It was a lot of fun. And we have, you know, we have all these kids and they invited a bunch of friends. And the challenge always is, Gerrit, that you say, you know, my wife and I say to our kids, okay, how many people have you invited? A couple of people. Okay. How many people do you think are going to come? Two or three people. Okay. Because we're going to be preparing. I smell, I smell like onions. It's leaking out of my pores. The amount of latkes that I had to make. And so for like, we expected 30 people. And so we made 150 latkes as you want to do. And so anyway, our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s.
Richard We did the count before you arrived, you see. So it's the official count. So what was funny about it, it was great. It was a lot of fun. And we have, you know, we have all these kids and they invited a bunch of friends. And the challenge always is, Gerrit, that you say, you know, my wife and I say to our kids, okay, how many people have you invited? A couple of people. Okay. How many people do you think are going to come? Two or three people. Okay. Because we're going to be preparing. I smell, I smell like onions. It's leaking out of my pores. The amount of latkes that I had to make. And so for like, we expected 30 people. And so we made 150 latkes as you want to do. And so anyway, our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s.
Richard And, but we had more than that and it was a lot of folks and it was a lot of fun and Hanukkah is a good time.
Richard And, but we had more than that and it was a lot of folks and it was a lot of fun and Hanukkah is a good time.
Gerrit There were some aggressive dreidel playing. I mean, you say that.
Gerrit There were some aggressive dreidel playing. I mean, you say that.
Richard It was, there was some aggressive dreidel playing and it was fun. And we did a nice Jewish trivia for cash prizes. It was a good time. It was so nice of you to come up to see us. You said that you were in Draper and you're like, well, we're almost there.
Richard It was, there was some aggressive dreidel playing and it was fun. And we did a nice Jewish trivia for cash prizes. It was a good time. It was so nice of you to come up to see us. You said that you were in Draper and you're like, well, we're almost there.
Gerrit And then you drove another hour. It was only another all the way across Salt Lake Valley and up into Davis County. We were basically in the neighborhood. So, yeah, so that that as the year winds down, you know, we've had a whole bunch of people send us their their number of minutes listened to on Spotify. Yes.
Gerrit And then you drove another hour. It was only another all the way across Salt Lake Valley and up into Davis County. We were basically in the neighborhood. So, yeah, so that that as the year winds down, you know, we've had a whole bunch of people send us their their number of minutes listened to on Spotify. Yes.
Richard Oh, yeah.
Gerrit Very impressive. Some people, I mean, and I like how, you know, they like to flex with one another, like some persons like, I'm in the top five percent of listeners. And then someone responds to that and they're like, I'm in the top two percent. And then I'm pretty sure Lindsey, she's in the top point five percent. So at that point, all flexing ended. Yeah. No one even posted again after that.
Richard Oh, yeah.
Gerrit Very impressive. Some people, I mean, and I like how, you know, they like to flex with one another, like some persons like, I'm in the top five percent of listeners. And then someone responds to that and they're like, I'm in the top two percent. And then I'm pretty sure Lindsey, she's in the top point five percent. So at that point, all flexing ended. Yeah. No one even posted again after that.
Richard No, it's pretty good. And so I thought it would be fun here to talk about kind of our rap. The problem is, is that you have a family account. And so all of the stuff that your family listens to, not necessarily what you listen to.
Richard No, it's pretty good. And so I thought it would be fun here to talk about kind of our rap. The problem is, is that you have a family account. And so all of the stuff that your family listens to, not necessarily what you listen to.
Gerrit Amazon music, right? So when I got my report in quotes from Amazon music of what we listen to most, nothing on that list is anything that I ever listen to, nor Angie. But I have teenage boys and so it's what they listen to.
Gerrit Amazon music, right? So when I got my report in quotes from Amazon music of what we listen to most, nothing on that list is anything that I ever listen to, nor Angie. But I have teenage boys and so it's what they listen to.
Richard Right. A lot of Tabernacle Choir.
Richard Right. A lot of Tabernacle Choir.
Gerrit Oh yeah. So much Bluegrass. It's Bluegrass, there's a little bit of Waltz music. It's what you'd expect from your typical 17 and 14 year old boys.
Gerrit Oh yeah. So much Bluegrass. It's Bluegrass, there's a little bit of Waltz music. It's what you'd expect from your typical 17 and 14 year old boys.
Richard So I'm often, people say to me, Richard, how are you so hip to the kids? How do you stay so relevant? I'm often asked that.
Richard So I'm often, people say to me, Richard, how are you so hip to the kids? How do you stay so relevant? I'm often asked that.
Gerrit We get that email then so often.
Gerrit We get that email then so often.
Richard So often, so often. As you go blind, how is it that you're still able to connect with the youth in such a such a dynamic way? So my entire family uses Spotify, but I use Apple. And so we were able to able to say, okay, well, this is mine and it's really just mine. And so I thought I'd go through a couple and get your thoughts on mine.
Richard So often, so often. As you go blind, how is it that you're still able to connect with the youth in such a such a dynamic way? So my entire family uses Spotify, but I use Apple. And so we were able to able to say, okay, well, this is mine and it's really just mine. And so I thought I'd go through a couple and get your thoughts on mine.
Gerrit I'm excited. How many do you have on your list?
Gerrit I'm excited. How many do you have on your list?
Richard Well, so I have my top 10 here. And so these are the top 10 songs that I listen to in 2025. Starting at number 10, Nessun Dwarma by Pavarotti. It's number 10.
Richard Well, so I have my top 10 here. And so these are the top 10 songs that I listen to in 2025. Starting at number 10, Nessun Dwarma by Pavarotti. It's number 10.
Gerrit Oh, how cultured of you.
Gerrit Oh, how cultured of you.
Richard Yes, how very cultured of me. Number eight.
Richard Yes, how very cultured of me. Number eight.
Gerrit I like that you pretend that you are cultured. That's right.
Gerrit I like that you pretend that you are cultured. That's right.
Richard So I was skipping around a little bit. Number eight is Stick Season. I do like that song.
Richard So I was skipping around a little bit. Number eight is Stick Season. I do like that song.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard You know, Season of the Sticks. Yeah. That one's pretty good. I'll just give my top five here. Number five, the theme from Schindler's List. Now that one caught me off guard.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard You know, Season of the Sticks. Yeah. That one's pretty good. I'll just give my top five here. Number five, the theme from Schindler's List. Now that one caught me off guard.
Gerrit I think that's a depressing one, but...
Gerrit I think that's a depressing one, but...
Richard So often when I'm listening to music, I don't listen to... So I watch a lot of... I listen to a lot of YouTube or watch a lot of YouTube and it's a lot of fairly boring lectures or it's mostly... It's all just Clayton Christensen all the time.
Richard So often when I'm listening to music, I don't listen to... So I watch a lot of... I listen to a lot of YouTube or watch a lot of YouTube and it's a lot of fairly boring lectures or it's mostly... It's all just Clayton Christensen all the time.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And so...
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And so...
Gerrit Unless you listen to this podcast.
Gerrit Unless you listen to this podcast.
Richard I don't actually.
Richard I don't actually.
Gerrit Oh, okay. Well, that explains a lot, actually.
Gerrit Oh, okay. Well, that explains a lot, actually.
Richard So usually I'll listen to music when I'm working or I'm doing research or I'm doing some things. And so I think that the theme from Schindler's List, although haunting is something that is... Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay. Number four. I was impressed with this. Savior, Redeemer of My Soul. I was like, oh, beautiful. Yeah.
Richard So usually I'll listen to music when I'm working or I'm doing research or I'm doing some things. And so I think that the theme from Schindler's List, although haunting is something that is... Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay. Number four. I was impressed with this. Savior, Redeemer of My Soul. I was like, oh, beautiful. Yeah.
Gerrit I love that song.
Gerrit I love that song.
Richard Yeah. Number three, One Day More from Les Mis.
Richard Yeah. Number three, One Day More from Les Mis.
Gerrit Oh, I love that song. Yeah. And that's also a good like hype you up song when you're, when you've got a deadline.
Gerrit Oh, I love that song. Yeah. And that's also a good like hype you up song when you're, when you've got a deadline.
Richard It is true.
Richard It is true.
Gerrit It's also got one more day to get this in.
Gerrit It's also got one more day to get this in.
Richard It's also the alarm on my phone every morning. So I feel like that's cheating a little bit. So it's One Day More. It's a joke for myself. Number two. Now this is, I feel like this is important. So I love my wife very much. She's wonderful. She is the wind beneath my wings.
Richard It's also the alarm on my phone every morning. So I feel like that's cheating a little bit. So it's One Day More. It's a joke for myself. Number two. Now this is, I feel like this is important. So I love my wife very much. She's wonderful. She is the wind beneath my wings.
Gerrit Was that the song?
Gerrit Was that the song?
Richard It's not. That would be funny if it was.
Richard It's not. That would be funny if it was.
Gerrit If it was Bette Midler at two, you and I'd be having a conversation.
Gerrit If it was Bette Midler at two, you and I'd be having a conversation.
Richard Well, just wait for my number one. So the number two is every time I set an alarm on my phone to go do something that my wife wants me to do, some errand or whatever, the song I have is I'll go where you want me to go.
Richard Well, just wait for my number one. So the number two is every time I set an alarm on my phone to go do something that my wife wants me to do, some errand or whatever, the song I have is I'll go where you want me to go.
Gerrit That's funny.
Gerrit That's funny.
Richard Yes. I think it's funny.
Richard Yes. I think it's funny.
Gerrit That's funny. Does Becky find it funny?
Gerrit That's funny. Does Becky find it funny?
Richard I don't know. I hope she does. Because I mean it with all love. And I am legitimately whatever you want me to do, wherever you want me to go. My number one, by a lot though, by the way, any guess?
Richard I don't know. I hope she does. Because I mean it with all love. And I am legitimately whatever you want me to do, wherever you want me to go. My number one, by a lot though, by the way, any guess?
Gerrit Is it music?
Gerrit Is it music?
Richard This is a popular song, not necessarily of this time period. If you had a month of Sundays, you'll never guess this song ever.
Richard This is a popular song, not necessarily of this time period. If you had a month of Sundays, you'll never guess this song ever.
Gerrit I'm going to say Sink the Bismarck by Johnny Horton.
Gerrit I'm going to say Sink the Bismarck by Johnny Horton.
Richard It's Massachusetts by the Bee Gees. Now, I've never heard that song. I have no idea how that song-
Richard It's Massachusetts by the Bee Gees. Now, I've never heard that song. I have no idea how that song-
Gerrit You've never heard the song?
Gerrit You've never heard the song?
Richard I've heard the song since I've seen this. I'm like, wait, what's that song? And then I played it and I'm like, going to Massachusetts. How is that possible? I have no idea. Now, when I travel with my family, I put together a playlist that names all of the states or places that we're going as an annoying playlist that we listen to. But I didn't go to Massachusetts this year. This certainly would have been that if I made that. It's played, it's over a hundred times that it played. I've never heard the song, not familiar with it. Now I am now familiar with it.
Richard I've heard the song since I've seen this. I'm like, wait, what's that song? And then I played it and I'm like, going to Massachusetts. How is that possible? I have no idea. Now, when I travel with my family, I put together a playlist that names all of the states or places that we're going as an annoying playlist that we listen to. But I didn't go to Massachusetts this year. This certainly would have been that if I made that. It's played, it's over a hundred times that it played. I've never heard the song, not familiar with it. Now I am now familiar with it.
Gerrit Someone has stolen one of your Apple devices and they only listen to Massachusetts on repeat.
Gerrit Someone has stolen one of your Apple devices and they only listen to Massachusetts on repeat.
Richard By the Bee Gees. That's what I'm alleging. That's apparently what I have to allege. And it actually is at this point that I'm realizing that our entire criminal justice system might be a fraud and no one is actually guilty of anything. Because I certainly have not listened to Massachusetts by the Bee Gees.
Richard By the Bee Gees. That's what I'm alleging. That's apparently what I have to allege. And it actually is at this point that I'm realizing that our entire criminal justice system might be a fraud and no one is actually guilty of anything. Because I certainly have not listened to Massachusetts by the Bee Gees.
Gerrit I feel like this is how you try to plant doubt for when you get arrested for some kind of embezzlement next week. I don't know. I wasn't playing Massachusetts. Someone else had my phone.
Gerrit I feel like this is how you try to plant doubt for when you get arrested for some kind of embezzlement next week. I don't know. I wasn't playing Massachusetts. Someone else had my phone.
Richard I'll listen. I'll tell you this. You know what? Kind of still slaps, you know, Matt?
Richard I'll listen. I'll tell you this. You know what? Kind of still slaps, you know, Matt?
Gerrit Oh, the Bee Gees always do.
Gerrit Oh, the Bee Gees always do.
Richard Always do. We'll end this episode going out with a little excerpt of Massachusetts.
Richard Always do. We'll end this episode going out with a little excerpt of Massachusetts.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit And then that'll push you to even higher in the rankings, because the year is not over yet.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit And then that'll push you to even higher in the rankings, because the year is not over yet.
Richard Well, so now we do not have a Christie's Corner this week because it's from the 20th century. We both believe in families and the eternal nature of families. But Gerrit only knows about things from the 1800s. And so we'll go straight to Phebe Draper Palmer Brown's Mailbag.
Richard Well, so now we do not have a Christie's Corner this week because it's from the 20th century. We both believe in families and the eternal nature of families. But Gerrit only knows about things from the 1800s. And so we'll go straight to Phebe Draper Palmer Brown's Mailbag.
Gerrit Who also believes in eternal family.
Gerrit Who also believes in eternal family.
Richard She also does. Family Proclamation is the come follow me this week. This first email comes to us from Elder Gaynor. I just want to say thank you for making this podcast. I'm a Spanish-speaking missionary in Suriname right now in the Guyana Georgetown Mission. Your mom and dad served in Suriname. Was that the mission?
Richard She also does. Family Proclamation is the come follow me this week. This first email comes to us from Elder Gaynor. I just want to say thank you for making this podcast. I'm a Spanish-speaking missionary in Suriname right now in the Guyana Georgetown Mission. Your mom and dad served in Suriname. Was that the mission?
Gerrit They served in Suriname, yes.
Gerrit They served in Suriname, yes.
Richard Was this the mission?
Richard Was this the mission?
Gerrit So the mission kind of bounces around, but yes, it would have been that mission.
Gerrit So the mission kind of bounces around, but yes, it would have been that mission.
Richard Very cool. And I have learned so much.
Richard Very cool. And I have learned so much.
Gerrit For a little while, it was attached to the Caribbean mission, right? So, you know, they kind of get moved around, but yes.
Gerrit For a little while, it was attached to the Caribbean mission, right? So, you know, they kind of get moved around, but yes.
Richard I've learned so much from you guys. It's always so much fun to listen to all the random tangents. I can't think of any that we've ever done. I don't have any questions. Just want to say thank you for all that you do. I definitely realize on my mission how beautiful and simple the gospel is. And it's such an amazing experience seeing the changes in people's lives as they choose to be baptized to make a covenant with Christ, keep up the good work, Elder Gaynor. And we have one other, that's very nice, thank you, Elder Gaynor. And we have one more here. You were talking actually at the Hanukkah party to a return missionary who talked about how he couldn't listen to the podcast. And then you explained, oh no, we add your email to a Google Drive and that allows you to listen to it. And he said, if I had only known.
Richard I've learned so much from you guys. It's always so much fun to listen to all the random tangents. I can't think of any that we've ever done. I don't have any questions. Just want to say thank you for all that you do. I definitely realize on my mission how beautiful and simple the gospel is. And it's such an amazing experience seeing the changes in people's lives as they choose to be baptized to make a covenant with Christ, keep up the good work, Elder Gaynor. And we have one other, that's very nice, thank you, Elder Gaynor. And we have one more here. You were talking actually at the Hanukkah party to a return missionary who talked about how he couldn't listen to the podcast. And then you explained, oh no, we add your email to a Google Drive and that allows you to listen to it. And he said, if I had only known.
Gerrit Yeah, he was like, I wouldn't have come home early off from my mission and despondency. If only I would have known I could have accessed the Standard of Truth podcast on a Google Drive. Wow.
Gerrit Yeah, he was like, I wouldn't have come home early off from my mission and despondency. If only I would have known I could have accessed the Standard of Truth podcast on a Google Drive. Wow.
Richard So it was at the time, it would have been as a missionary, Elder Arbuckle. And he said, hey, I noticed somebody there that looks like Gerrit Dirkmaat. I'm like, yeah, that is Gerrit Dirkmaat. And he's like, how do you know Gerrit Dirkmaat? And I'm like, we went to school 25 years ago.
Richard So it was at the time, it would have been as a missionary, Elder Arbuckle. And he said, hey, I noticed somebody there that looks like Gerrit Dirkmaat. I'm like, yeah, that is Gerrit Dirkmaat. And he's like, how do you know Gerrit Dirkmaat? And I'm like, we went to school 25 years ago.
Gerrit He clearly doesn't listen to the podcast.
Gerrit He clearly doesn't listen to the podcast.
Richard No, he knows you can follow him, which is the much better of the podcast. It's true.
Richard No, he knows you can follow him, which is the much better of the podcast. It's true.
Gerrit I had the similar experience at the Casa de Salsa, which if you're wondering, is a house of salsa. If you're wondering.
Gerrit I had the similar experience at the Casa de Salsa, which if you're wondering, is a house of salsa. If you're wondering.
Richard Okay, for those non-Spanish speakers here. Yes.
Richard Okay, for those non-Spanish speakers here. Yes.
Gerrit For all those of you who are gringos, it is a house of salsa. It's just a little restaurant in Spanish Fork. And Angie's dad and her sister and some of my nieces and nephews, he had to come down here for a minute. And so we all went over there for lunch. And while we were there eating, a very kind woman and her daughter came up and said, Oh, are you Gerrit Dirkmaat? And we talked for a minute. And of course I knew, you know, they'd seen me, you know, it had been on Follow Him because they have video.
Gerrit For all those of you who are gringos, it is a house of salsa. It's just a little restaurant in Spanish Fork. And Angie's dad and her sister and some of my nieces and nephews, he had to come down here for a minute. And so we all went over there for lunch. And while we were there eating, a very kind woman and her daughter came up and said, Oh, are you Gerrit Dirkmaat? And we talked for a minute. And of course I knew, you know, they'd seen me, you know, it had been on Follow Him because they have video.
Richard And it's good. Yeah. Yeah.
Richard And it's good. Yeah. Yeah.
Gerrit And it's good because people listen to it. The best part was, you know, so I got up and talked to him and we got a picture together and stuff. The best part always is just seeing how stunned Angie's dad is that anybody could possibly care who I am at all. You've never, I mean, you've never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else's reality. Why are they talking to you? Oh, it's, you know, because I've been on the podcast and like, so, so they think you're a big deal? I mean, I don't know. I mean, they wanted to meet me. Like, so, so why do they think you're important? I'm not, I'm not important. It's hard to respond, you know, to a father-in-law's inquiry.
Gerrit And it's good because people listen to it. The best part was, you know, so I got up and talked to him and we got a picture together and stuff. The best part always is just seeing how stunned Angie's dad is that anybody could possibly care who I am at all. You've never, I mean, you've never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else's reality. Why are they talking to you? Oh, it's, you know, because I've been on the podcast and like, so, so they think you're a big deal? I mean, I don't know. I mean, they wanted to meet me. Like, so, so why do they think you're important? I'm not, I'm not important. It's hard to respond, you know, to a father-in-law's inquiry.
Richard No, no, it happens to me all the time. So I can't go to Causa, Causa de Salsa.
Richard No, no, it happens to me all the time. So I can't go to Causa, Causa de Salsa.
Gerrit Yeah, you can't go to Causa or Causa, or really anywhere, because you're just mobbed.
Gerrit Yeah, you can't go to Causa or Causa, or really anywhere, because you're just mobbed.
Richard Just mobbed, just, just I'm constantly mobbed.
Richard Just mobbed, just, just I'm constantly mobbed.
Gerrit People will just come running up to him and they'll say, I have an idea about implied referrals. Aren't you the guy? And, and he says, I am the guy. And, and, you know, but then they want him to give consulting for free. It's just a lot. It's a lot. But we thank all of our listeners. And, and I think the point of that little interlude was to say for missionaries, if, if you want your missionaries or if you're a missionary and you want to have access to this on your mission, provided that your mission president says it's okay to listen to, you just need to email the podcast with your missionary email and we'll add you eventually to the Google Drive and you'll have access to it.
Gerrit People will just come running up to him and they'll say, I have an idea about implied referrals. Aren't you the guy? And, and he says, I am the guy. And, and, you know, but then they want him to give consulting for free. It's just a lot. It's a lot. But we thank all of our listeners. And, and I think the point of that little interlude was to say for missionaries, if, if you want your missionaries or if you're a missionary and you want to have access to this on your mission, provided that your mission president says it's okay to listen to, you just need to email the podcast with your missionary email and we'll add you eventually to the Google Drive and you'll have access to it.
Richard In fairness, in fairness, calca in Spanish is calm, so calca de salsa is like super mild salsa.
Richard In fairness, in fairness, calca in Spanish is calm, so calca de salsa is like super mild salsa.
Gerrit It's the most vanilla salsa. Nobody's excited about it. There's no flavor. It's just tomatoes.
Gerrit It's the most vanilla salsa. Nobody's excited about it. There's no flavor. It's just tomatoes.
Richard Yeah. It's just, it's like a single tomato that you put. We do have one more email. This comes from Rachel's mom's husband.
Richard Yeah. It's just, it's like a single tomato that you put. We do have one more email. This comes from Rachel's mom's husband.
Gerrit We're going to give him a Rex.
Gerrit We're going to give him a Rex.
Richard Yes. He forwarded over an image from Babylon B, which is hilarious. They've got great memes from time to time. Whenever I see this, my thoughts immediately are directed to Gerrit's reference to Calvinism. I have been brainwashed in a good way. Merry Christmas to all. And it's a picture of John Calvin dressed in more of a Santa Claus attire and it says, everyone is on the naughty list.
Richard Yes. He forwarded over an image from Babylon B, which is hilarious. They've got great memes from time to time. Whenever I see this, my thoughts immediately are directed to Gerrit's reference to Calvinism. I have been brainwashed in a good way. Merry Christmas to all. And it's a picture of John Calvin dressed in more of a Santa Claus attire and it says, everyone is on the naughty list.
Gerrit Yes. And you know, the funny part about that, I got, I received a ton of memes. I apparently talk about Calvinism a lot on the show. Because I've received dozens of e-mails and texts from people with Calvin Santa memes. That in one way or another, everyone's naughty, no one's good, no one deserves any presents. The interesting thing about that is we've talked about this before is that, Calvinists, it really is their starting point, the total depravity of mankind, that everyone deserves to go to hell. And so, of course, everyone is on the naughty list. But also, as it relates to Christmas, the Calvinists tried to ban Christmas everywhere they were, because Christmas was a Catholic high holy day, you know? And so, in England, when the Calvinists took over, they tried to ban Christmas. In Massachusetts, they tried to ban Christmas when the Puritans took over, when they had their ability to do so. I mean, they aren't ever successful because culturally everyone wants to celebrate Christmas, right?
Gerrit Yes. And you know, the funny part about that, I got, I received a ton of memes. I apparently talk about Calvinism a lot on the show. Because I've received dozens of e-mails and texts from people with Calvin Santa memes. That in one way or another, everyone's naughty, no one's good, no one deserves any presents. The interesting thing about that is we've talked about this before is that, Calvinists, it really is their starting point, the total depravity of mankind, that everyone deserves to go to hell. And so, of course, everyone is on the naughty list. But also, as it relates to Christmas, the Calvinists tried to ban Christmas everywhere they were, because Christmas was a Catholic high holy day, you know? And so, in England, when the Calvinists took over, they tried to ban Christmas. In Massachusetts, they tried to ban Christmas when the Puritans took over, when they had their ability to do so. I mean, they aren't ever successful because culturally everyone wants to celebrate Christmas, right?
Gerrit It's like the one person in your neighbor that's like, this year, I don't think anyone should give any gifts to anyone at all. We should just all buy a goat for someone in Africa, which is a beautiful sentiment. And, you know, it would be great if we all just bought goats for people in Africa. But I think we're all well aware that people are still going to do Christmas. In fact, we actually tried as a neighborhood, right? You know, we're spending all this money buying gifts for people. You know, here's a neighborhood gift and, you know, a little gift. Here's this, here's that, whatever. Why don't we just take all that money that we would have spent on giving each other neighborhood little gifts and we'll donate it to charity. So we did that that year. We pulled together some money. We donated the money to charity. And guess what happened? Everybody still just went around and gave everybody neighborhood gifts anyway. So it actually made no difference. So it was like, you know, instead of giving neighborhood gifts. And the best part was one of the people whose idea it was, they gave a neighborhood gift.
Gerrit It's like the one person in your neighbor that's like, this year, I don't think anyone should give any gifts to anyone at all. We should just all buy a goat for someone in Africa, which is a beautiful sentiment. And, you know, it would be great if we all just bought goats for people in Africa. But I think we're all well aware that people are still going to do Christmas. In fact, we actually tried as a neighborhood, right? You know, we're spending all this money buying gifts for people. You know, here's a neighborhood gift and, you know, a little gift. Here's this, here's that, whatever. Why don't we just take all that money that we would have spent on giving each other neighborhood little gifts and we'll donate it to charity. So we did that that year. We pulled together some money. We donated the money to charity. And guess what happened? Everybody still just went around and gave everybody neighborhood gifts anyway. So it actually made no difference. So it was like, you know, instead of giving neighborhood gifts. And the best part was one of the people whose idea it was, they gave a neighborhood gift.
Gerrit Like, well, I felt bad not giving a neighborhood gift. It's like, well, you're, this was your idea. Anyway, I digress, but it is very funny with Calvin and Santa.
Gerrit Like, well, I felt bad not giving a neighborhood gift. It's like, well, you're, this was your idea. Anyway, I digress, but it is very funny with Calvin and Santa.
Richard Yes, indeed. Well, so now, Gerrit, without any, without further ado, on to Dead and in Hell, part nine, likely the last installment of Dead and in Hell.
Richard Yes, indeed. Well, so now, Gerrit, without any, without further ado, on to Dead and in Hell, part nine, likely the last installment of Dead and in Hell.
Gerrit No, no, no, no.
Gerrit No, no, no, no.
Richard Oh boy. Okay.
Richard Oh boy. Okay.
Gerrit Yeah. I don't, I mean, how, how far do you want to understand what's going on?
Gerrit Yeah. I don't, I mean, how, how far do you want to understand what's going on?
Richard I think, I think you could just say Zachary Taylor, and then we play the music and we're out.
Richard I think, I think you could just say Zachary Taylor, and then we play the music and we're out.
Gerrit But the music we would play would be Massachusetts by the Bee Gees, correct? That's correct. Okay.
Gerrit But the music we would play would be Massachusetts by the Bee Gees, correct? That's correct. Okay.
Richard It was actually, people didn't know this is Zachary Taylor's favorite song.
Richard It was actually, people didn't know this is Zachary Taylor's favorite song.
Gerrit Oh, Zachary Taylor. And he loved Massachusetts, you know, being from the south like he was. Super big Massachusetts fan living in Louisiana. So we, we, we had gotten to the point of the speech where the, where Perry Brocchus, Judge Brocchus was, you know, kind of the, the Lyle Langley of the day, kind of phrasing all the people there, but he's getting ready to drop the hammer, right? And so he, he says this, you know, it talks about, oh, you've, you've lavished such kindness on me. The Latter-day Saints have lavished their kindness on me, and they are entitled to my most everlasting gratitude. I appear before you this morning, not in my official capacity, but as a fellow citizen to address this audience, which is funny because he literally said to Brigham Young, I, in my official capacity, I want to address everyone to ask for the Washington Monument.
Gerrit Oh, Zachary Taylor. And he loved Massachusetts, you know, being from the south like he was. Super big Massachusetts fan living in Louisiana. So we, we, we had gotten to the point of the speech where the, where Perry Brocchus, Judge Brocchus was, you know, kind of the, the Lyle Langley of the day, kind of phrasing all the people there, but he's getting ready to drop the hammer, right? And so he, he says this, you know, it talks about, oh, you've, you've lavished such kindness on me. The Latter-day Saints have lavished their kindness on me, and they are entitled to my most everlasting gratitude. I appear before you this morning, not in my official capacity, but as a fellow citizen to address this audience, which is funny because he literally said to Brigham Young, I, in my official capacity, I want to address everyone to ask for the Washington Monument.
Gerrit And then, you know, for rhetorical purposes, he then tells everyone I'm just here because I'm a lover of the country the way you are. Don't even think of me as being an associate justice of the Supreme Court, except also always reference me as associate justice of the Supreme Court, Brocchus, but don't even think of just thinking of me as being a regular guy. Anyway, I, with my associates, are coming here as judges of the Supreme Court, but not hoping that lawsuits would be amongst your people, nor to set your people to wrangling that we may be a long flowery opinion in verbose language of the law. Yeah, nothing you would do would be verbose, Perry Brocchus. We have heard of your manner of litigation. It is peaceful. You live in fellowship and peace and love. You submit to the tribunal of your choice. I say God grant the time that may come that all of this vast country may have such tribunals, for they bring peace to the country and to the litigants.
Gerrit And then, you know, for rhetorical purposes, he then tells everyone I'm just here because I'm a lover of the country the way you are. Don't even think of me as being an associate justice of the Supreme Court, except also always reference me as associate justice of the Supreme Court, Brocchus, but don't even think of just thinking of me as being a regular guy. Anyway, I, with my associates, are coming here as judges of the Supreme Court, but not hoping that lawsuits would be amongst your people, nor to set your people to wrangling that we may be a long flowery opinion in verbose language of the law. Yeah, nothing you would do would be verbose, Perry Brocchus. We have heard of your manner of litigation. It is peaceful. You live in fellowship and peace and love. You submit to the tribunal of your choice. I say God grant the time that may come that all of this vast country may have such tribunals, for they bring peace to the country and to the litigants.
Gerrit When your cause is before a tribunal of your own choice, you feel an acquiescence in the decision. But the courts of law are not always so. In the Book of Mosiah, now again, we talked about how he's going hard on Book of Mormon, okay? In the Book of Mosiah, you read that in the days of Alma, a man would be appointed judges of law and they were paid for their time that they sat and that they judge cases. We have no such in incitement to induce you to go to law. We are paid by the United States a compensation by the year and not by the number of trials we have. Now, here's an example of where he doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah. And so he thinks he's being relatable, but he's actually making a subtle dig at the Book of Mormon. But I don't think he intends to here. I think, you know, clumsily, not having read it at all, he read the Book of Mormon as meaning judges only got paid for every case that came before them.
Gerrit When your cause is before a tribunal of your own choice, you feel an acquiescence in the decision. But the courts of law are not always so. In the Book of Mosiah, now again, we talked about how he's going hard on Book of Mormon, okay? In the Book of Mosiah, you read that in the days of Alma, a man would be appointed judges of law and they were paid for their time that they sat and that they judge cases. We have no such in incitement to induce you to go to law. We are paid by the United States a compensation by the year and not by the number of trials we have. Now, here's an example of where he doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah. And so he thinks he's being relatable, but he's actually making a subtle dig at the Book of Mormon. But I don't think he intends to here. I think, you know, clumsily, not having read it at all, he read the Book of Mormon as meaning judges only got paid for every case that came before them.
Gerrit And so, you know, the natural, you know, 19th century American mind would be, well, we need to have a whole bunch of cases go before the court so that we could get some money. When the point of the Book of Mormon is, look, these people were, they had other jobs. They weren't living off of the fact that they were a judge. The entire point in the Book of Mormon is these people aren't living off of the fact that they have this power. And Brocchus uses it the opposite to say, you know, unlike those people, I'm getting paid an annual salary. Now that's literally the opposite of what they were trying to say. They don't want people paid an annual salary for it. But his point is, I'm not being paid per case. So I won't be trying to incite anyone into going to court with one another because I'm not, you know, Brocchus isn't chasing down the equivalent of a stagecoach ambulance, trying to get someone to sue so that he can collect some court fees.
Gerrit And so, you know, the natural, you know, 19th century American mind would be, well, we need to have a whole bunch of cases go before the court so that we could get some money. When the point of the Book of Mormon is, look, these people were, they had other jobs. They weren't living off of the fact that they were a judge. The entire point in the Book of Mormon is these people aren't living off of the fact that they have this power. And Brocchus uses it the opposite to say, you know, unlike those people, I'm getting paid an annual salary. Now that's literally the opposite of what they were trying to say. They don't want people paid an annual salary for it. But his point is, I'm not being paid per case. So I won't be trying to incite anyone into going to court with one another because I'm not, you know, Brocchus isn't chasing down the equivalent of a stagecoach ambulance, trying to get someone to sue so that he can collect some court fees.
Gerrit That's what he's trying to get across, I think. It is your duty to stand by your judiciary, to protect it and preserve it in its public sentiments and estimation. So notice that's kind of a weird thing to say. It's all of your duty to support us as your judges. Kind of weird to say, like, what do you think that we wouldn't support you? Like, where is this coming from? I mean, it would be weird if when Richard and I got on this podcast, I started by saying, you know, Richard, it's your duty to not embezzle from the company. I mean, first of all, obviously, but second of all, wouldn't that be kind of odd? Like, why exactly do you say that? No reason. Just throwing it out there, you know, like the person who's telling you what they want for Christmas without telling you what they want for Christmas. That's kind of like what it's.
Gerrit That's what he's trying to get across, I think. It is your duty to stand by your judiciary, to protect it and preserve it in its public sentiments and estimation. So notice that's kind of a weird thing to say. It's all of your duty to support us as your judges. Kind of weird to say, like, what do you think that we wouldn't support you? Like, where is this coming from? I mean, it would be weird if when Richard and I got on this podcast, I started by saying, you know, Richard, it's your duty to not embezzle from the company. I mean, first of all, obviously, but second of all, wouldn't that be kind of odd? Like, why exactly do you say that? No reason. Just throwing it out there, you know, like the person who's telling you what they want for Christmas without telling you what they want for Christmas. That's kind of like what it's.
Intro Right.
Intro Right.
Gerrit I shall soon leave my brethren of the bench and shall regret the disillusion of my association with this people. And I may never again see your mountain city or your fruitful veils or this generous people. While I am in your presence, I have to repel an insinuation that has been laid upon me. It is said that I came in your midst expecting to be returned as a delegate to Congress. The first step that a man must take to become a candidate for a virtuous, reputable and thinking people is to obtain their confidence. So he's already responding to rumors that he's electioneering and those rumors start with him because it's what he's saying to the group he's crossing the planes with is that I'm going to leverage this into becoming a congressman or a senator.
Gerrit I shall soon leave my brethren of the bench and shall regret the disillusion of my association with this people. And I may never again see your mountain city or your fruitful veils or this generous people. While I am in your presence, I have to repel an insinuation that has been laid upon me. It is said that I came in your midst expecting to be returned as a delegate to Congress. The first step that a man must take to become a candidate for a virtuous, reputable and thinking people is to obtain their confidence. So he's already responding to rumors that he's electioneering and those rumors start with him because it's what he's saying to the group he's crossing the planes with is that I'm going to leverage this into becoming a congressman or a senator.
Gerrit So he's responding to rumors that exist because he said the things that are in the rumors, which is kind of funny given that the entire point of the speech is to attack Brigham Young for what Brigham Young supposedly said, right? This is a hearsay thing. I have said that if the people of this territory were to send any other person of their preference of their own people and if they were to send me, I have said I might have been able to do you good, right? So essentially, I only said that if you were to send me, it would benefit you greatly. I didn't say you should. I just, you know, I mean, if you force me to, if you put my arm behind my back and march me to the halls of Congress, I guess I would. I wouldn't want to, but he's not exactly coming off like the great Cincinnati's Washington, you know, he, I think everyone in the audience like, yeah, none of us, none of us were concerned that we were accidentally going to elect you to Congress.
Gerrit So he's responding to rumors that exist because he said the things that are in the rumors, which is kind of funny given that the entire point of the speech is to attack Brigham Young for what Brigham Young supposedly said, right? This is a hearsay thing. I have said that if the people of this territory were to send any other person of their preference of their own people and if they were to send me, I have said I might have been able to do you good, right? So essentially, I only said that if you were to send me, it would benefit you greatly. I didn't say you should. I just, you know, I mean, if you force me to, if you put my arm behind my back and march me to the halls of Congress, I guess I would. I wouldn't want to, but he's not exactly coming off like the great Cincinnati's Washington, you know, he, I think everyone in the audience like, yeah, none of us, none of us were concerned that we were accidentally going to elect you to Congress.
Gerrit That was not, none of us came here today like, boy, I hope we don't send Brocchus because we know he doesn't want to go. Anyway, I have been honored by the executive of this Republic, the president of the United States, with the office in this organization of the territory. And it would be, it would be not behoove a man to choose a man unless he was an honorable man. Now, he's trying to point out how, how special he is because Millard Fillmore, who appointed him, is a Whig. And Brocchus is a Democrat. I was a Democrat of opposite politics to President Fillmore. And yet I was appointed by Millard Fillmore, a man whom you all respect, to fill this post. I want the respect of the people and I will have it if I can obtain it by any honorable means. There is another reason of my visit before you, which is that to fill a national pride.
Gerrit That was not, none of us came here today like, boy, I hope we don't send Brocchus because we know he doesn't want to go. Anyway, I have been honored by the executive of this Republic, the president of the United States, with the office in this organization of the territory. And it would be, it would be not behoove a man to choose a man unless he was an honorable man. Now, he's trying to point out how, how special he is because Millard Fillmore, who appointed him, is a Whig. And Brocchus is a Democrat. I was a Democrat of opposite politics to President Fillmore. And yet I was appointed by Millard Fillmore, a man whom you all respect, to fill this post. I want the respect of the people and I will have it if I can obtain it by any honorable means. There is another reason of my visit before you, which is that to fill a national pride.
Gerrit I've been commissioned by a board of managers of the National Monument to ask this territory for a block of marble for that great and stupendous monument. And to read a letter to them from the board of managers. Okay, so he does get to the point of what we need to get a block for the Washington Monument and he has Thomas Bullock reads the letter and they get up and then Brocchus gets back up. He talks a little bit about what life is like in Washington, about sorry, about what Washington's life was like and what he did, and then Brocchus then read an extract of an oration delivered by Daniel H. Wells on the 24th of July in regard to the Mormon battalion. If for those who've been wondering, when does this get good? It just got it. And he said that the government of the United States did not make any imperative demand for 500 men, but they asked for the voluntary services of men, and that the person who made the demand transcended the bounds of authority.
Gerrit I've been commissioned by a board of managers of the National Monument to ask this territory for a block of marble for that great and stupendous monument. And to read a letter to them from the board of managers. Okay, so he does get to the point of what we need to get a block for the Washington Monument and he has Thomas Bullock reads the letter and they get up and then Brocchus gets back up. He talks a little bit about what life is like in Washington, about sorry, about what Washington's life was like and what he did, and then Brocchus then read an extract of an oration delivered by Daniel H. Wells on the 24th of July in regard to the Mormon battalion. If for those who've been wondering, when does this get good? It just got it. And he said that the government of the United States did not make any imperative demand for 500 men, but they asked for the voluntary services of men, and that the person who made the demand transcended the bounds of authority.
Gerrit And I want to defend the United States from that censure. I disapprove of the sentiment and charge. I admire the diction and the language of the orator. But no, Polk expressed his decided disapprobation of the scenes of persecution that took place in Missouri and Illinois. They roused my indignation and my abhorrence, and also the abhorrence of the people who lived in the same section as I did. And I believe the mass of the people boiled with rage at the report of those scenes in Missouri. Now, already at this point, what do you think someone like Amanda Barnes-Smith, whose husband was murdered in Missouri, her child was murdered in Missouri, and her other child maimed for life in Missouri, what do you think she's thinking as this blowhard goes on about just how raging the people of the United States were against the violence that took place against them?
Gerrit And I want to defend the United States from that censure. I disapprove of the sentiment and charge. I admire the diction and the language of the orator. But no, Polk expressed his decided disapprobation of the scenes of persecution that took place in Missouri and Illinois. They roused my indignation and my abhorrence, and also the abhorrence of the people who lived in the same section as I did. And I believe the mass of the people boiled with rage at the report of those scenes in Missouri. Now, already at this point, what do you think someone like Amanda Barnes-Smith, whose husband was murdered in Missouri, her child was murdered in Missouri, and her other child maimed for life in Missouri, what do you think she's thinking as this blowhard goes on about just how raging the people of the United States were against the violence that took place against them?
Richard I think she would be pretty frustrated with that.
Richard I think she would be pretty frustrated with that.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah. Again, this is not 1867. This is 1851. Almost everyone who is in Utah territory at this point is someone who at the very least experienced the persecution in Nauvoo where they were driven out violently. And let's remember just a couple of years earlier, while the last vestiges of the Saints are trying to get out, mobs attack and kill people as they're trying to get out. And no one's put on trial. No governor stops anybody. What Brocchus is doing, and he doesn't realize the hornet's nest he's kicked yet. But trying to claim that James Polk was horrified at what happened to the Mormons, even though he didn't do a single thing to stop the treatment of the Mormons, even though he refused to allow Utah to become a territory, this is not a good argument to make.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah. Again, this is not 1867. This is 1851. Almost everyone who is in Utah territory at this point is someone who at the very least experienced the persecution in Nauvoo where they were driven out violently. And let's remember just a couple of years earlier, while the last vestiges of the Saints are trying to get out, mobs attack and kill people as they're trying to get out. And no one's put on trial. No governor stops anybody. What Brocchus is doing, and he doesn't realize the hornet's nest he's kicked yet. But trying to claim that James Polk was horrified at what happened to the Mormons, even though he didn't do a single thing to stop the treatment of the Mormons, even though he refused to allow Utah to become a territory, this is not a good argument to make.
Gerrit It would be like trying to convince somebody. You've ever been in the situation where you have a mutual friend or a mutual acquaintance of somebody and you've got nothing but good things to say about this person, but the other person you're talking to was fired by them at a job? And so they don't like that person, right? And you want to be loyal to your friend, but there's only so much you can say before you're about to lose a second friend, right?
Gerrit It would be like trying to convince somebody. You've ever been in the situation where you have a mutual friend or a mutual acquaintance of somebody and you've got nothing but good things to say about this person, but the other person you're talking to was fired by them at a job? And so they don't like that person, right? And you want to be loyal to your friend, but there's only so much you can say before you're about to lose a second friend, right?
Richard Right.
Richard Right.
Gerrit No, you don't understand. He really is like a really good guy. Yeah, he's so great. He's so great. He lied to me about my bonus and then fired me. And then even after he told me that he was going to keep me on. Yeah, it's what an amazing guy is. If he was any more honest, I mean, he'd probably become Abraham Lincoln himself. It's crazy. You know, you can only go so far trying to defend the honor of someone who has done something to someone else because you're not going to convince someone whose house was burned down in Missouri or whose dad was shot in Yellow Rome in Illinois. You're not going to convince them. There wasn't really any persecution. You guys, come on. I mean, come on. Or you're not going to convince them. Yes, there was persecution. It's just everyone was so upset. You have no idea. Everyone was so upset. So upset that they tried to stop it. Well, not that upset. I mean, come on. What do you want people? What do you expect people to do?
Gerrit No, you don't understand. He really is like a really good guy. Yeah, he's so great. He's so great. He lied to me about my bonus and then fired me. And then even after he told me that he was going to keep me on. Yeah, it's what an amazing guy is. If he was any more honest, I mean, he'd probably become Abraham Lincoln himself. It's crazy. You know, you can only go so far trying to defend the honor of someone who has done something to someone else because you're not going to convince someone whose house was burned down in Missouri or whose dad was shot in Yellow Rome in Illinois. You're not going to convince them. There wasn't really any persecution. You guys, come on. I mean, come on. Or you're not going to convince them. Yes, there was persecution. It's just everyone was so upset. You have no idea. Everyone was so upset. So upset that they tried to stop it. Well, not that upset. I mean, come on. What do you want people? What do you expect people to do?
Gerrit I mean, they're not going to lose their jobs over this. Exactly. So, boiling with rage is the terminology used. Really? So Brocchus continues, the government in the United States have not injured you. Now, that sentence alone is going to cause problems. The government of the United States have not injured you. Although your wrongs have gone unaddressed, Missouri is the place to redress your wrongs and Illinois. Also, the president of the United States has not the right to communicate private wrongs in his message to Congress. Really? He doesn't have the right to tell Congress of horrible things that are happening? I'm just going to go back and say he absolutely does it all of the time, in fact. In fact, almost every presidential address addresses something where someone is aggrieved because of something that's been done or not done in the government.
Gerrit I mean, they're not going to lose their jobs over this. Exactly. So, boiling with rage is the terminology used. Really? So Brocchus continues, the government in the United States have not injured you. Now, that sentence alone is going to cause problems. The government of the United States have not injured you. Although your wrongs have gone unaddressed, Missouri is the place to redress your wrongs and Illinois. Also, the president of the United States has not the right to communicate private wrongs in his message to Congress. Really? He doesn't have the right to tell Congress of horrible things that are happening? I'm just going to go back and say he absolutely does it all of the time, in fact. In fact, almost every presidential address addresses something where someone is aggrieved because of something that's been done or not done in the government.
Gerrit So you can already feel tensions are rising, right? He's trying to tell the Latter-day Saints that they're wrong to be upset about losing people, about losing homes, about losing farms, and about being abandoned by the United States government. That's a tough sell. It's a tough sell to try to convince people. I know you went through it, but it was fine.
Gerrit So you can already feel tensions are rising, right? He's trying to tell the Latter-day Saints that they're wrong to be upset about losing people, about losing homes, about losing farms, and about being abandoned by the United States government. That's a tough sell. It's a tough sell to try to convince people. I know you went through it, but it was fine.
Richard This was the argument though that was being made, right? Is that you had a... I mean, we have a far weaker federal government at that time than we do now. Like now, now it's a really easy... Why didn't the US government do more? You're saying that while that might have been the argument, it rang hollow because they still did stuff all of the time to impose their will on states.
Richard This was the argument though that was being made, right? Is that you had a... I mean, we have a far weaker federal government at that time than we do now. Like now, now it's a really easy... Why didn't the US government do more? You're saying that while that might have been the argument, it rang hollow because they still did stuff all of the time to impose their will on states.
Gerrit Sure. And to say things like, well, the federal government can't intervene. Well, except when it does. Right? I mean, the argument that the federal government can't intervene, even though it intervened all the time, when it felt like it, right? Ask the Cherokee whether or not the federal government can intervene in a state matter. And yeah, they'll intervene. They'll intervene on the side of the states in order to allow the Cherokee to be driven on the Trail of Tears. So it's true that our government is not designed the same way. But I think it's a pretty big overstatement for people to say there's no possible way for the federal government to have gotten involved because the federal government does get involved when it wants to. And when it wants to, just doesn't so happen to be when it's Mormons that are being killed.
Gerrit Sure. And to say things like, well, the federal government can't intervene. Well, except when it does. Right? I mean, the argument that the federal government can't intervene, even though it intervened all the time, when it felt like it, right? Ask the Cherokee whether or not the federal government can intervene in a state matter. And yeah, they'll intervene. They'll intervene on the side of the states in order to allow the Cherokee to be driven on the Trail of Tears. So it's true that our government is not designed the same way. But I think it's a pretty big overstatement for people to say there's no possible way for the federal government to have gotten involved because the federal government does get involved when it wants to. And when it wants to, just doesn't so happen to be when it's Mormons that are being killed.
Gerrit Then it doesn't want to. And frankly, when it comes to Polk, the Latter-day Saints, regardless of how the battalion was called, the Latter-day Saints discerned from Polk that he had disingenuous purposes. And they were 100% right. Now they discern that because he wasn't letting them stay on the land that he told them he could stay on in winter quarters, he wasn't allowing Utah to become a territory. He said he wouldn't appoint any Latter-day Saints to the territorial office. I mean, there's lots of evidence that James Polk is not Captain Friend of the Mormons. It's not just, how could I possibly arrest people that were murdering people in Illinois? And beyond that, the federal government could have intervened whenever it wanted to. Because multiple of these violent acts took place across state boundaries, right? When Joe's is being kidnapped and drug across Missouri, I mean, when Latter-day Saints are being driven across the state, the federal government had the ability to act.
Gerrit Then it doesn't want to. And frankly, when it comes to Polk, the Latter-day Saints, regardless of how the battalion was called, the Latter-day Saints discerned from Polk that he had disingenuous purposes. And they were 100% right. Now they discern that because he wasn't letting them stay on the land that he told them he could stay on in winter quarters, he wasn't allowing Utah to become a territory. He said he wouldn't appoint any Latter-day Saints to the territorial office. I mean, there's lots of evidence that James Polk is not Captain Friend of the Mormons. It's not just, how could I possibly arrest people that were murdering people in Illinois? And beyond that, the federal government could have intervened whenever it wanted to. Because multiple of these violent acts took place across state boundaries, right? When Joe's is being kidnapped and drug across Missouri, I mean, when Latter-day Saints are being driven across the state, the federal government had the ability to act.
Gerrit It just didn't want to. So playing the we just, aw shucks, we just couldn't do anything about it, concern it. It's just not going to, it's not gonna fly. And it's especially not going to fly for people who've watched these scenes of violence play out, who've experienced them. So government in the United States hasn't injured you. The president doesn't have the right to talk about it. They will ultimately ascertain that they have power and they will give you redress for all your wrong. So he then tells them, if only you will appeal to Missouri and Illinois, they will ultimately ascertain that they have the power and they will give you redress for all your wrongs. To tell a Mormon who's been asking that their stolen property and the people murdered in Missouri be given back to them and compensated to them for the past 13 years.
Gerrit It just didn't want to. So playing the we just, aw shucks, we just couldn't do anything about it, concern it. It's just not going to, it's not gonna fly. And it's especially not going to fly for people who've watched these scenes of violence play out, who've experienced them. So government in the United States hasn't injured you. The president doesn't have the right to talk about it. They will ultimately ascertain that they have power and they will give you redress for all your wrong. So he then tells them, if only you will appeal to Missouri and Illinois, they will ultimately ascertain that they have the power and they will give you redress for all your wrongs. To tell a Mormon who's been asking that their stolen property and the people murdered in Missouri be given back to them and compensated to them for the past 13 years.
Gerrit To just say, what, why don't you guys just like ask? I mean, you guys haven't even asked Missouri or so, why don't you just like tell Illinois that it's like not okay to steal all your property? It's, I don't know at this point whether Brocchus is pompously stupid and he just thinks he knows what's going on, you know, because you read a couple of passages in the Book of Mormon or, or he is deliberately saying something that he knows. He can't possibly believe if he is a politician in the no at all that the Mormons are going to be given money by Missouri or Illinois for the violence that took against them. He can't possibly believe that. But he just said that to them. He just said, you know, you guys just got to, just got to petition Missouri and you'll have redress for all your wrongs.
Gerrit To just say, what, why don't you guys just like ask? I mean, you guys haven't even asked Missouri or so, why don't you just like tell Illinois that it's like not okay to steal all your property? It's, I don't know at this point whether Brocchus is pompously stupid and he just thinks he knows what's going on, you know, because you read a couple of passages in the Book of Mormon or, or he is deliberately saying something that he knows. He can't possibly believe if he is a politician in the no at all that the Mormons are going to be given money by Missouri or Illinois for the violence that took against them. He can't possibly believe that. But he just said that to them. He just said, you know, you guys just got to, just got to petition Missouri and you'll have redress for all your wrongs.
Gerrit I have regretted to hear an expression by a very great person that the US were a stink in the nostrils, in God's nostrils. Yet another of your society says that it is one of the greatest governments in the Valleys, that its productive rivers, men and beautiful women, and that its political institutions are great and everything that can make it great. I was deeply pained to hear a member of the company that came along with me while on the plains say that the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as it could.
Gerrit I have regretted to hear an expression by a very great person that the US were a stink in the nostrils, in God's nostrils. Yet another of your society says that it is one of the greatest governments in the Valleys, that its productive rivers, men and beautiful women, and that its political institutions are great and everything that can make it great. I was deeply pained to hear a member of the company that came along with me while on the plains say that the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as it could.
Gerrit General Taylor may have had his errors and may be and may have expressed strong feelings against the Latter-day Saints, but essentially, but that's not warned. Friends and fellow citizens, I shall always remember my gratitude with gratitude, my interview with the Latter-day Saints in the Valley of the Mountains with respect. And then it kind of trails off. You lose a little bit there. So here he said, someone, while he was traveling across the plains, said that the United States was a stink in the nostrils of God because of what it had done. So Brigham Young gets up after him. Now, Brigham Young has, he's been monorailed here. He's been sideswiped because he was told the purpose of this speech was Brocchus was going to get up, talk about how great General Washington is, and then say, we need a marble block donated by Utah Territory.
Gerrit General Taylor may have had his errors and may be and may have expressed strong feelings against the Latter-day Saints, but essentially, but that's not warned. Friends and fellow citizens, I shall always remember my gratitude with gratitude, my interview with the Latter-day Saints in the Valley of the Mountains with respect. And then it kind of trails off. You lose a little bit there. So here he said, someone, while he was traveling across the plains, said that the United States was a stink in the nostrils of God because of what it had done. So Brigham Young gets up after him. Now, Brigham Young has, he's been monorailed here. He's been sideswiped because he was told the purpose of this speech was Brocchus was going to get up, talk about how great General Washington is, and then say, we need a marble block donated by Utah Territory.
Gerrit And he wanted people to raise money for it. Well, that's not what Brocchus did. Brocchus got up and told everyone that they were wrong to have a problem with the federal government. They were wrong to believe that they had been wrong. They were wrong to not like Polk. They were wrong to not like Taylor. And they were wrong to say that the United States government was going to face the judgments of God. President Young arose and said, I feel obliged to say a few words and reply to Judge Brocchus and what he has said. And I must say, and if you're looking for a great Brigham Young line, this is the one to share in High Priest Group. I must say, he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked, one of the two. There are several gentlemen who would be very glad to prove the statements that have been made about Judge Brocchus. The government of the United States have looked on and seen the robbing and the driving of this people, and they have said nothing about it.
Gerrit And he wanted people to raise money for it. Well, that's not what Brocchus did. Brocchus got up and told everyone that they were wrong to have a problem with the federal government. They were wrong to believe that they had been wrong. They were wrong to not like Polk. They were wrong to not like Taylor. And they were wrong to say that the United States government was going to face the judgments of God. President Young arose and said, I feel obliged to say a few words and reply to Judge Brocchus and what he has said. And I must say, and if you're looking for a great Brigham Young line, this is the one to share in High Priest Group. I must say, he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked, one of the two. There are several gentlemen who would be very glad to prove the statements that have been made about Judge Brocchus. The government of the United States have looked on and seen the robbing and the driving of this people, and they have said nothing about it.
Gerrit Now, here's part of Brigham Young's point. Show me where the federal government even expressed concern that Mormon, that American citizens were being murdered and driven off of their property, which in some cases, they bought from the federal government.
Gerrit Now, here's part of Brigham Young's point. Show me where the federal government even expressed concern that Mormon, that American citizens were being murdered and driven off of their property, which in some cases, they bought from the federal government.
Richard So, I mean, that is probably the fairest of points. All right. So let's say that the federal government can do nothing. You didn't even say anything.
Richard So, I mean, that is probably the fairest of points. All right. So let's say that the federal government can do nothing. You didn't even say anything.
Gerrit Yep. It's fine. It's fine to do nothing. But why don't you, as president, give a speech where you say, I call upon the citizens of Missouri to leave the Mormons alone? You didn't even do that. So you not only didn't use your power, you didn't even use your rhetoric. And trying to convince people that a politician can't talk about something is a pretty poor thing to try to convince something. Because if there's one thing a politician always has the ability to do, and that's talk about everything. As Judge Brocchus was demonstrating here, he can talk about all kinds of things. So Brigham Young's point, he's either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked. The government of the United States looked on and seen the robbing and driving of this people, and they said nothing about it. I will not say anything about the men who have been killed.
Gerrit Yep. It's fine. It's fine to do nothing. But why don't you, as president, give a speech where you say, I call upon the citizens of Missouri to leave the Mormons alone? You didn't even do that. So you not only didn't use your power, you didn't even use your rhetoric. And trying to convince people that a politician can't talk about something is a pretty poor thing to try to convince something. Because if there's one thing a politician always has the ability to do, and that's talk about everything. As Judge Brocchus was demonstrating here, he can talk about all kinds of things. So Brigham Young's point, he's either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked. The government of the United States looked on and seen the robbing and driving of this people, and they said nothing about it. I will not say anything about the men who have been killed.
Gerrit But I will say that there are hundreds of women and children that have been laid low in the ground. Again, about General Washington. He was not dandled in the cradle of ease. He was raised in a hardy backwoods life. He's responding now because apparently what Brocchus made it sound like is that Washington was some kind of refined gentleman. And Brigham Young's taking issue with that, that, you know, guys out, you know, cutting his way through the Virginia wilderness. It was God that dictated to Washington and guided him through his life. And it is he who guided and leads this people. We love the government. We love the Constitution. But we do not love some damned rascals that profess to administer the government.
Gerrit But I will say that there are hundreds of women and children that have been laid low in the ground. Again, about General Washington. He was not dandled in the cradle of ease. He was raised in a hardy backwoods life. He's responding now because apparently what Brocchus made it sound like is that Washington was some kind of refined gentleman. And Brigham Young's taking issue with that, that, you know, guys out, you know, cutting his way through the Virginia wilderness. It was God that dictated to Washington and guided him through his life. And it is he who guided and leads this people. We love the government. We love the Constitution. But we do not love some damned rascals that profess to administer the government.
Gerrit I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can't help it. If I could have saved him and thousands of others, I would have been very glad to. But I can't help it. I say, ladies and gentlemen, we will learn good principles and good manners. And I say, it is an insult to this congregation for any man to throw such a challenge in a religious meeting. I say, it is an insult and I will say no more. Now, there's another point that Brigham Young is making. You just got up in our religious worship services to tell everyone there who buried people in Iowa, who lost everything they owned in Missouri, who had their dad shot in Illinois, that they were imagining that they'd been treated poorly.
Gerrit I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can't help it. If I could have saved him and thousands of others, I would have been very glad to. But I can't help it. I say, ladies and gentlemen, we will learn good principles and good manners. And I say, it is an insult to this congregation for any man to throw such a challenge in a religious meeting. I say, it is an insult and I will say no more. Now, there's another point that Brigham Young is making. You just got up in our religious worship services to tell everyone there who buried people in Iowa, who lost everything they owned in Missouri, who had their dad shot in Illinois, that they were imagining that they'd been treated poorly.
Gerrit What are you doing? I always think about this, not about this, but in a much lighter way, we got to get it a little light in here, right? Sometimes people will come over to, they'll visit your ward and they'll come to class, they'll come to elders quorum. I'm always fascinated by the person who just comes right into Sunday school or into elders quorum and they just will not stop commenting. They legitimately don't know one person in there, they don't know any of the dynamics, they don't know anybody and they're commenting eight, nine, ten times. They just keep, every time the teacher says something, hand goes up. Well, that's why we got to do a lot better job when we're doing our ministry. I mean, just...
Gerrit What are you doing? I always think about this, not about this, but in a much lighter way, we got to get it a little light in here, right? Sometimes people will come over to, they'll visit your ward and they'll come to class, they'll come to elders quorum. I'm always fascinated by the person who just comes right into Sunday school or into elders quorum and they just will not stop commenting. They legitimately don't know one person in there, they don't know any of the dynamics, they don't know anybody and they're commenting eight, nine, ten times. They just keep, every time the teacher says something, hand goes up. Well, that's why we got to do a lot better job when we're doing our ministry. I mean, just...
Richard It is funny though, although your approach to Sunday school, you take more of a Calvin Coolidge like approach to Sunday school.
Richard It is funny though, although your approach to Sunday school, you take more of a Calvin Coolidge like approach to Sunday school.
Gerrit Yeah, you lose.
Gerrit Yeah, you lose.
Richard Yeah. Silent cow. Yeah, you're...
Richard Yeah. Silent cow. Yeah, you're...
Gerrit I'm making reference to the, you know, the supposed bet that he bet someone that he could get Calvin Coolidge to say three words before the end of the day. And Calvin Coolidge said to him, well, because he said, I bet, I bet they bet me, I couldn't get you to say three words. And he said, you lose.
Gerrit I'm making reference to the, you know, the supposed bet that he bet someone that he could get Calvin Coolidge to say three words before the end of the day. And Calvin Coolidge said to him, well, because he said, I bet, I bet they bet me, I couldn't get you to say three words. And he said, you lose.
Richard It is funny though. It is a, it is a funny, sometimes you get good, good stuff, but it is funny that like, you don't know anybody. You don't know what's going on. You come in, hey, you're shooting from the hip. There we go. Let's go.
Richard It is funny though. It is a, it is a funny, sometimes you get good, good stuff, but it is funny that like, you don't know anybody. You don't know what's going on. You come in, hey, you're shooting from the hip. There we go. Let's go.
Gerrit Well, it's just interesting because for all, you know, the guy who's giving the lesson, you know, and this can be the case, like has a child that has passed away. You know what I mean? And you don't know that at all. And you know, he's given the lesson. And then you make a comment at this, this happened, not in this ward, but in a previous ward. Someone doesn't know that that's the dynamic. And they make a comment like, well, I think, you know, you know, we can talk about it like this, but I don't think a lot of people understand what it's even like to lose a child. And the person who was speaking had lost a child. You know, that's one of those times we kind of want to like, hey, maybe just wait for a second. Maybe, maybe just don't think that you know exactly what's going on and what the nature of things are. Let's just, you know, and I get it. Like some people are nervous. And when you're nervous, you comment. I get it. I get it.
Gerrit Well, it's just interesting because for all, you know, the guy who's giving the lesson, you know, and this can be the case, like has a child that has passed away. You know what I mean? And you don't know that at all. And you know, he's given the lesson. And then you make a comment at this, this happened, not in this ward, but in a previous ward. Someone doesn't know that that's the dynamic. And they make a comment like, well, I think, you know, you know, we can talk about it like this, but I don't think a lot of people understand what it's even like to lose a child. And the person who was speaking had lost a child. You know, that's one of those times we kind of want to like, hey, maybe just wait for a second. Maybe, maybe just don't think that you know exactly what's going on and what the nature of things are. Let's just, you know, and I get it. Like some people are nervous. And when you're nervous, you comment. I get it. I get it.
Gerrit I will say though, if you're visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it's time, it's time to dial it back. It's time to go get a drink of water. It's time for you to go just let other people have a chance. Anyway, so Brigham Young ends it like that. Now you'll notice what he says there, at least the way it's recorded in these minutes, is that I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. Now, of course, for Latter-day Saints, damnation is a very different thing than it is for other Christians, right? We don't believe that damnation is forever. We believe that it's temporary suffering and that then eventually there will be a resurrection, you'll go to a kingdom of glory. Now, when a Christian hears something like that, it sounds like what you're saying is Zachary Taylor is going to burn in the fiery pits of hell forever. Brigham Young is essentially saying, look, there's nothing I can do to help the fact that he's dead and in the spirit world and suffering for the sins that he committed.
Gerrit I will say though, if you're visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it's time, it's time to dial it back. It's time to go get a drink of water. It's time for you to go just let other people have a chance. Anyway, so Brigham Young ends it like that. Now you'll notice what he says there, at least the way it's recorded in these minutes, is that I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. Now, of course, for Latter-day Saints, damnation is a very different thing than it is for other Christians, right? We don't believe that damnation is forever. We believe that it's temporary suffering and that then eventually there will be a resurrection, you'll go to a kingdom of glory. Now, when a Christian hears something like that, it sounds like what you're saying is Zachary Taylor is going to burn in the fiery pits of hell forever. Brigham Young is essentially saying, look, there's nothing I can do to help the fact that he's dead and in the spirit world and suffering for the sins that he committed.
Gerrit And you think, well, what sins has Zachary Taylor committed? I mean, well, I mean, he has over 100 slaves at his plantation, so I'm guessing something going on, you know, I mean. And so it what happens, though, is that this takes on a firestorm. The the the fact that Brigham Young gets up and says, yeah, that's that's not going to fly. And, you know, it'd be very indignant is is Brocchus and all of the other judges at the response to make matters short, which I can't possibly do at this point, make matters short was a long, long time ago. Eventually, it gets to a point where, you know, Brigham after this, you know, because this is a really public thing.
Gerrit And you think, well, what sins has Zachary Taylor committed? I mean, well, I mean, he has over 100 slaves at his plantation, so I'm guessing something going on, you know, I mean. And so it what happens, though, is that this takes on a firestorm. The the the fact that Brigham Young gets up and says, yeah, that's that's not going to fly. And, you know, it'd be very indignant is is Brocchus and all of the other judges at the response to make matters short, which I can't possibly do at this point, make matters short was a long, long time ago. Eventually, it gets to a point where, you know, Brigham after this, you know, because this is a really public thing.
Gerrit He hears a report that the judge, that the several of the justices, Lemuel Brandebury, Perry Brocchus, and then the secretary of the territory, Broughton Harris, that they were all, that they were just going to leave their posts and go back to the United States. So Brigham Young does the responsible adult thing to do. Now, in this case, I think Brigham Young is spot on. This person lied to you and said, I want to speak to your people briefly to ask for a donation for Washington's Monument. And then he went on for an hour telling everyone how wrong they were, that no one ever hurt them and they shouldn't have a problem with the United States. Well, that's not what you said you were gonna talk about. You called an audible here. You decided to pass on the one yard line and it was an interception for a touchdown. So, Brigham Young though writes to Brocchus and he says, look, I think both of us kind of probably said things we probably shouldn't, a little emotional.
Gerrit He hears a report that the judge, that the several of the justices, Lemuel Brandebury, Perry Brocchus, and then the secretary of the territory, Broughton Harris, that they were all, that they were just going to leave their posts and go back to the United States. So Brigham Young does the responsible adult thing to do. Now, in this case, I think Brigham Young is spot on. This person lied to you and said, I want to speak to your people briefly to ask for a donation for Washington's Monument. And then he went on for an hour telling everyone how wrong they were, that no one ever hurt them and they shouldn't have a problem with the United States. Well, that's not what you said you were gonna talk about. You called an audible here. You decided to pass on the one yard line and it was an interception for a touchdown. So, Brigham Young though writes to Brocchus and he says, look, I think both of us kind of probably said things we probably shouldn't, a little emotional.
Gerrit How about we both, we meet again next week. You apologize for your remarks. I'll apologize for mine and we'll just move on. Right. Now that sounds like a pretty big thing to do. Right. Brocchus response. Oh, I'd be happy to meet with you again next week, but I wouldn't be able to apologize for anything that I said, because everything I said was 100% accurate. You didn't say 100% accurate. You said, but everything was right. So things kind of snowball a little bit. Now only, so this is, this is all happening in September, but eventually these officials are going to leave Utah territory. And once they leave Utah territory, they are going to make the most outlandish claims that their lives are in danger, that the Mormons are going to kill them, that the Mormons are in rebellion. Let me give you an example of a newspaper article from November talking about what's going on in Utah when these judges leave.
Gerrit How about we both, we meet again next week. You apologize for your remarks. I'll apologize for mine and we'll just move on. Right. Now that sounds like a pretty big thing to do. Right. Brocchus response. Oh, I'd be happy to meet with you again next week, but I wouldn't be able to apologize for anything that I said, because everything I said was 100% accurate. You didn't say 100% accurate. You said, but everything was right. So things kind of snowball a little bit. Now only, so this is, this is all happening in September, but eventually these officials are going to leave Utah territory. And once they leave Utah territory, they are going to make the most outlandish claims that their lives are in danger, that the Mormons are going to kill them, that the Mormons are in rebellion. Let me give you an example of a newspaper article from November talking about what's going on in Utah when these judges leave.
Gerrit Revolutionary Outbreak in Utah is what it's called. The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit. The day will never come when they will be good citizens of the United States, as some of the Indians are under our protection. He goes on to talk about the whole thing that, you know, these people are assembled and Brocchus gets up to speak. He invoked for the judiciary the confidence and support of the community. This invocation was prompted by a conviction that the popular sentiment was inimical, inimical, inimical, inimical. Oh my goodness gracious. I, Richard, I smell toast.
Gerrit Revolutionary Outbreak in Utah is what it's called. The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit. The day will never come when they will be good citizens of the United States, as some of the Indians are under our protection. He goes on to talk about the whole thing that, you know, these people are assembled and Brocchus gets up to speak. He invoked for the judiciary the confidence and support of the community. This invocation was prompted by a conviction that the popular sentiment was inimical, inimical, inimical, inimical. Oh my goodness gracious. I, Richard, I smell toast.
Richard Yeah, you should have had me read that.
Richard Yeah, you should have had me read that.
Gerrit Yeah, let's see if I could, I'm going to port this over to Richard real quick. He'll read it.
Gerrit Yeah, let's see if I could, I'm going to port this over to Richard real quick. He'll read it.
Richard Inimicable.
Richard Inimicable.
Gerrit It doesn't, it doesn't help that the the newsprint right there is smudged over. So I'm kind of reading through what appears to be someone's fingerprint. Someone grabbed it too quickly off the press. Anyway, to the establishment of a territorial government and the consequent extensions of the jurisdiction of the United States government over the people, and more especially by the apprehension that the general feeling of the inhabitants was particularly adverse to the judicial branch of government, which was principally composed of citizens of the United States who were not members of the Mormon Church. The governor of the territory who is the head of the Mormon Church, having on several occasions declared that he had governed this people for years and he could still govern them without judges and have vowed that the judges of the United States courts might reside in the territory and draw their salaries, but they could never try a cause if he could prevent it.
Gerrit It doesn't, it doesn't help that the the newsprint right there is smudged over. So I'm kind of reading through what appears to be someone's fingerprint. Someone grabbed it too quickly off the press. Anyway, to the establishment of a territorial government and the consequent extensions of the jurisdiction of the United States government over the people, and more especially by the apprehension that the general feeling of the inhabitants was particularly adverse to the judicial branch of government, which was principally composed of citizens of the United States who were not members of the Mormon Church. The governor of the territory who is the head of the Mormon Church, having on several occasions declared that he had governed this people for years and he could still govern them without judges and have vowed that the judges of the United States courts might reside in the territory and draw their salaries, but they could never try a cause if he could prevent it.
Gerrit So here's what's funny. Now this angry antagonistic paper is taking Brocchus saying, I love the fact that you have so few disputes among your people that go to law. It's now turned it exactly upside down to say, Brigham Young is going to make sure nothing goes to the courts. It's a classic, classic. Anyway, Judge Brocchus is going to be referenced in this several times. We're going to cut to the point where it matters for our larger discussion. The Mormons ought to have been appointed, none but Mormons ought to have been appointed to any office in the territory. They're saying Brigham Young says this and none others but damned rascals would come here. Judge Brocchus denounced the charge that he had come to the territory solely for the purpose of being returned to the Congress as a delegate as false and slanderous, even though there's multiple witnesses to that statement.
Gerrit So here's what's funny. Now this angry antagonistic paper is taking Brocchus saying, I love the fact that you have so few disputes among your people that go to law. It's now turned it exactly upside down to say, Brigham Young is going to make sure nothing goes to the courts. It's a classic, classic. Anyway, Judge Brocchus is going to be referenced in this several times. We're going to cut to the point where it matters for our larger discussion. The Mormons ought to have been appointed, none but Mormons ought to have been appointed to any office in the territory. They're saying Brigham Young says this and none others but damned rascals would come here. Judge Brocchus denounced the charge that he had come to the territory solely for the purpose of being returned to the Congress as a delegate as false and slanderous, even though there's multiple witnesses to that statement.
Gerrit He knew who was the author of the report and the and hope the individual was present. The person alluded to by the speaker was a member of the Mormon Church. Judge Brocchus then adverted in a mild and dignified manner, which the exclamation points and underlined words in the transcript don't suggest that, but to an unpatriotic and offensive expression, which had fallen from the lips of one of the Mormon preachers on the preceding Sunday during the hour set apart for the public worship and in the presence of a large congregation to the effect that the government of the United States was a stink in the nostrils of Jehovah and that they, the Mormons, wished it down and further that before they would use any other means to save it from destruction, then by the means of theocracy, they would see it damned first. Now, this is of course not only not accurate, literally the Latter-day Saints had agreed to try to save the government by joining California as a state.
Gerrit He knew who was the author of the report and the and hope the individual was present. The person alluded to by the speaker was a member of the Mormon Church. Judge Brocchus then adverted in a mild and dignified manner, which the exclamation points and underlined words in the transcript don't suggest that, but to an unpatriotic and offensive expression, which had fallen from the lips of one of the Mormon preachers on the preceding Sunday during the hour set apart for the public worship and in the presence of a large congregation to the effect that the government of the United States was a stink in the nostrils of Jehovah and that they, the Mormons, wished it down and further that before they would use any other means to save it from destruction, then by the means of theocracy, they would see it damned first. Now, this is of course not only not accurate, literally the Latter-day Saints had agreed to try to save the government by joining California as a state.
Gerrit So this makes for great news copy. What a great print job it is. But the very expression that Mormons would allow the country to be destroyed rather than help it when they literally were the ones who just tried to help it. But the people in California refused to have them is going to be a bit galling. He said, The sentiment was all the more offensive because was uttered in the presence of his honor, Judge Brandebury and himself, who had visited the Bowery on that occasion with respect to feelings and who have been invited to take a seat upon the stand and had instead of hearing a religious sermon as they'd expected, been insulted by a tirade of abuse against the country which they loved and the government of which they were part of the official representatives. Judge Brocchus next commented upon an expression used by an elder in the Mormon church with whom he had traveled from Iowa to this city in the following words.
Gerrit So this makes for great news copy. What a great print job it is. But the very expression that Mormons would allow the country to be destroyed rather than help it when they literally were the ones who just tried to help it. But the people in California refused to have them is going to be a bit galling. He said, The sentiment was all the more offensive because was uttered in the presence of his honor, Judge Brandebury and himself, who had visited the Bowery on that occasion with respect to feelings and who have been invited to take a seat upon the stand and had instead of hearing a religious sermon as they'd expected, been insulted by a tirade of abuse against the country which they loved and the government of which they were part of the official representatives. Judge Brocchus next commented upon an expression used by an elder in the Mormon church with whom he had traveled from Iowa to this city in the following words.
Gerrit Now, I'm assuming it's Orson Hyde because that's who he's traveling with. That's what you have to guess. That the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as it can and the sooner the better. To the recital of this declaration, there came up into the face of the speaker, an enthusiastic burst of applause, clapping of hands and laughter from many in the audience, together with a loud amen from a man in the immediate vicinity of the stand. So apparently just one guy said amen and that's now it's news copy. I work with a guy, great guy. He decided early in life that, you know, the point of prayers is to give a hearty amen to them or when a speaker is done, you're not just supposed to be like, man, man, man, man, man, or say nothing, which is what people do half the time. So every time someone prays or every time someone bears their testimonies and they close in amen, he gives a Methodist camp meeting shout of amen.
Gerrit Now, I'm assuming it's Orson Hyde because that's who he's traveling with. That's what you have to guess. That the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as it can and the sooner the better. To the recital of this declaration, there came up into the face of the speaker, an enthusiastic burst of applause, clapping of hands and laughter from many in the audience, together with a loud amen from a man in the immediate vicinity of the stand. So apparently just one guy said amen and that's now it's news copy. I work with a guy, great guy. He decided early in life that, you know, the point of prayers is to give a hearty amen to them or when a speaker is done, you're not just supposed to be like, man, man, man, man, man, or say nothing, which is what people do half the time. So every time someone prays or every time someone bears their testimonies and they close in amen, he gives a Methodist camp meeting shout of amen.
Gerrit He goes, amen, just yells it out. And so that's great. You always know whether or not he's at the meeting, because you'll know because you say a prayer and if you don't hear it, ain't there.
Gerrit He goes, amen, just yells it out. And so that's great. You always know whether or not he's at the meeting, because you'll know because you say a prayer and if you don't hear it, ain't there.
Richard That's a big mistake. It's a classic mistake also made by the Water Bandits when, because they'll notice when you're not there.
Richard That's a big mistake. It's a classic mistake also made by the Water Bandits when, because they'll notice when you're not there.
Gerrit The Wet Bandits?
Gerrit The Wet Bandits?
Richard What did I say? Water Bandits?
Richard What did I say? Water Bandits?
Gerrit I mean, from home alone?
Gerrit I mean, from home alone?
Richard Yes, yes, the Wet Bandits.
Richard Yes, yes, the Wet Bandits.
Gerrit I meant the Wet Bandits.
Gerrit I meant the Wet Bandits.
Richard No, yes, Wet Bandits is what I meant. I'm going to change this. I'm going to fix it in post.
Richard No, yes, Wet Bandits is what I meant. I'm going to change this. I'm going to fix it in post.
Gerrit So it says, you fix that along with me having a stroke, what I tried to say, I can't say it now. Well, I'm laughing, but I should try to say anyway. So he says he heard that and people said, Amen. Having administered a manly rebuke to this manifestation of applause of such an infamous expression, Judge Brocchus proceeded to notice a sacrilegious declaration made by Brigham Young, governor of the territory in the presence of and in the attentive hearing of a vast concourse of persons upon the late anniversary of the arrival of the Mormons in that valley. So again, now he's talking about the 24th of July speech. We don't have anywhere there where Brigham Young said that. So look, our minutes of the meeting of what Brocchus said, we clearly don't have everything that he said, but apparently he made a reference to that.
Gerrit So it says, you fix that along with me having a stroke, what I tried to say, I can't say it now. Well, I'm laughing, but I should try to say anyway. So he says he heard that and people said, Amen. Having administered a manly rebuke to this manifestation of applause of such an infamous expression, Judge Brocchus proceeded to notice a sacrilegious declaration made by Brigham Young, governor of the territory in the presence of and in the attentive hearing of a vast concourse of persons upon the late anniversary of the arrival of the Mormons in that valley. So again, now he's talking about the 24th of July speech. We don't have anywhere there where Brigham Young said that. So look, our minutes of the meeting of what Brocchus said, we clearly don't have everything that he said, but apparently he made a reference to that.
Gerrit And that's why Brigham Young said, Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell, right? But from the records we have of the 24th of July speech, Brigham Young doesn't say that Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell there either, right? But this is what Brocchus and the others are alleging. Back to the newspaper. Again, this is an antagonistic newspaper. Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell and I am glad of it. And I prophesy in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the priesthood that's upon me that any president of the United States who shall lift his finger against this people shall die an untimely death and go to hell. This declaration had been received with tremendous outburst of enthusiastic applause. Judge Brocchus, after appropriately referring to the character in the services of General Taylor, administered a severe rebuke to the author of the insult and the outrage upon his memory. The excitement resulting from the judge's speech had been deep and intense, and fears have been entertained for his personal safety.
Gerrit And that's why Brigham Young said, Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell, right? But from the records we have of the 24th of July speech, Brigham Young doesn't say that Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell there either, right? But this is what Brocchus and the others are alleging. Back to the newspaper. Again, this is an antagonistic newspaper. Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell and I am glad of it. And I prophesy in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the priesthood that's upon me that any president of the United States who shall lift his finger against this people shall die an untimely death and go to hell. This declaration had been received with tremendous outburst of enthusiastic applause. Judge Brocchus, after appropriately referring to the character in the services of General Taylor, administered a severe rebuke to the author of the insult and the outrage upon his memory. The excitement resulting from the judge's speech had been deep and intense, and fears have been entertained for his personal safety.
Gerrit Brigham Young replied to Judge Brocchus in a madly furious harangue, lashing the people into a state of excitement beyond power of any pen to picture. Now, out of nowhere, there's a whole new paragraph in this newspaper account. Governor Young and Heber C. Kimball are said to each have as many as 90 wives, and that's the only paragraph. It has nothing to do with any of the conversation, just Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball each have 90 wives. Now, of course, they don't, and they don't even have collectively that many, but that's what they say. That's at least what they're saying.
Gerrit Brigham Young replied to Judge Brocchus in a madly furious harangue, lashing the people into a state of excitement beyond power of any pen to picture. Now, out of nowhere, there's a whole new paragraph in this newspaper account. Governor Young and Heber C. Kimball are said to each have as many as 90 wives, and that's the only paragraph. It has nothing to do with any of the conversation, just Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball each have 90 wives. Now, of course, they don't, and they don't even have collectively that many, but that's what they say. That's at least what they're saying.
Richard If you ever feel like you're losing the argument, that's when it's very important to list out the number of wives that are at.
Richard If you ever feel like you're losing the argument, that's when it's very important to list out the number of wives that are at.
Gerrit I find that that's still the way that people interacting with Latter-day Saints today when they're losing arguments. Yeah, well, how many wives? We were just talking about the fall of Adam, but okay, it's this attempt to kind of win the argument. He goes on to say that Brigham Young claimed, all the United States officers who do not belong to the Mormon Church, oh no, this is a quote from the corresponders there. All the officers of the United States government who do not belong to the Mormon Church have resolved to leave the territory being unable to reconcile it to their sense of patriotism and self-respect to remain in the midst of a sedition and lawless vice that pervades that community in view of their departure. The people become greatly alarm fearing the adoption of some severe measures by the general government. The Gazette's correspondent concludes by saying these people have no idea of ever yielding a loyal obedience to the laws or jurisdiction of the general government and that they must either be sternly forced into submission to the laws of decency and justice or else abandoned to their vile and seditious practices and feelings.
Gerrit I find that that's still the way that people interacting with Latter-day Saints today when they're losing arguments. Yeah, well, how many wives? We were just talking about the fall of Adam, but okay, it's this attempt to kind of win the argument. He goes on to say that Brigham Young claimed, all the United States officers who do not belong to the Mormon Church, oh no, this is a quote from the corresponders there. All the officers of the United States government who do not belong to the Mormon Church have resolved to leave the territory being unable to reconcile it to their sense of patriotism and self-respect to remain in the midst of a sedition and lawless vice that pervades that community in view of their departure. The people become greatly alarm fearing the adoption of some severe measures by the general government. The Gazette's correspondent concludes by saying these people have no idea of ever yielding a loyal obedience to the laws or jurisdiction of the general government and that they must either be sternly forced into submission to the laws of decency and justice or else abandoned to their vile and seditious practices and feelings.
Gerrit Very, but you know, I like how it was an unbiased report here. I mean that very clearly could go both ways. We're out of time. A couple more things I want to share because this is going to come up again and again. So the answer to the question of who's dead and in hell. Well, it's not just Zachary Taylor. He's a starting point. But also we already read them talk about how Zachary, about how James Polk would be damned for his act of chicanery against the Mormons. But I want to track this just a little bit. So maybe we'll have, you know, it'll be a part like 9.5 next week.
Gerrit Very, but you know, I like how it was an unbiased report here. I mean that very clearly could go both ways. We're out of time. A couple more things I want to share because this is going to come up again and again. So the answer to the question of who's dead and in hell. Well, it's not just Zachary Taylor. He's a starting point. But also we already read them talk about how Zachary, about how James Polk would be damned for his act of chicanery against the Mormons. But I want to track this just a little bit. So maybe we'll have, you know, it'll be a part like 9.5 next week.
Richard Sounds good.
Richard Sounds good.
Gerrit And then we'll do, you know, something like how many evil spirits Thomas Marsh had. And, and you'll go on down the line. Thank you so much for joining us. And we're going to get back to regular programming eventually. We'll never do another multi-parter ever again, as long as I live. Right, Richard?
Gerrit And then we'll do, you know, something like how many evil spirits Thomas Marsh had. And, and you'll go on down the line. Thank you so much for joining us. And we're going to get back to regular programming eventually. We'll never do another multi-parter ever again, as long as I live. Right, Richard?
Richard As, yes, as long as Zachary Taylor is dead in hell, we won't do another one.
Richard As, yes, as long as Zachary Taylor is dead in hell, we won't do another one.
Gerrit Oh wow. That we wouldn't even have done this one. Okay. Thanks everyone for joining us.
Gerrit Oh wow. That we wouldn't even have done this one. Okay. Thanks everyone for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineAnd so anyway, our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s.
And it actually is at this point that I'm realizing that our entire criminal justice system might be a fraud and no one is actually guilty of anything.
You've never, I mean, you've never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else's reality.
I mean, it would be weird if when Richard and I got on this podcast, I started by saying, you know, Richard, it's your duty to not embezzle from the company.
And when it wants to, just doesn't so happen to be when it's Mormons that are being killed.
So you not only didn't use your power, you didn't even use your rhetoric.
I will say though, if you're visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it's time, it's time to dial it back.
You decided to pass on the one yard line and it was an interception for a touchdown.
If you ever feel like you're losing the argument, that's when it's very important to list out the number of wives that are at.
Source shelf
14 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersother
The Family: A Proclamation to the World (this week's Come, Follow Me)
No Kristy's Corner because it's 20th century and 'Gerrit only knows about things from the 1800s.'
other
Babylon Bee meme of John Calvin as Santa: 'everyone is on the naughty list'
Forwarded by Rachel's mom's husband; Gerrit notes Calvinists tried to ban Christmas in England and Massachusetts.
record
Minutes of the September 1851 general conference, Perry Brocchus's address
I appear before you this morning, not in my official capacity, but as a fellow citizen to address this audience
Brocchus says he speaks 'not in my official capacity,' though he asked to speak in exactly that capacity.
scripture
Book of Mormon judges (Brocchus cited 'the Book of Mosiah'; likely Alma 11, identified, not cited on air)
In the Book of Mosiah, you read that in the days of Alma, a man would be appointed judges of law and they were paid for their time
Brocchus misreads the Book of Mormon's judges, whose point was that they weren't living off their power.
record
Brocchus address, denying he came to be elected delegate
It is said that I came in your midst expecting to be returned as a delegate to Congress.
He answers rumors he started himself on the plains.
letter
Washington National Monument Society letter to Utah Territory, read by Thomas Bullock
The stated reason for Brocchus's speech: a block of marble for the Washington Monument.
sermon
Daniel H. Wells, Pioneer Day oration, July 24, 1851 (as read by Brocchus)
And I want to defend the United States from that censure.
Brocchus objects to Wells's charge that the Mormon Battalion was an imperative demand.
record
Brocchus address, on the federal government
the government in the United States have not injured you.
Tells the Saints the U.S. government never injured them and they should seek redress from Missouri and Illinois.
record
Brocchus address, on remarks heard on the plains
I have regretted to hear an expression by a very great person that the US were a stink in the nostrils, in God's nostrils.
Someone said the U.S. was a stink in God's nostrils and going to hell as fast as it could.
sermon
Brigham Young's reply to Brocchus, September 1851 conference minutes
I must say, he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked, one of the two.
Gerrit's suggested Brigham Young line for high priests group.
sermon
Brigham Young's reply, on the government and Zachary Taylor
I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can't help it.
The line the series is named for, as recorded in the minutes.
letter
Brigham Young to Perry Brocchus, proposing mutual apologies, and Brocchus's refusal
Brocchus says he can't apologize because everything he said was right.
newspaper
'Revolutionary Outbreak in Utah,' newspaper article, November 1851 (paper called the Gazette by its correspondent)
The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit.
A hostile account that turns Brocchus's praise of few lawsuits into Brigham blocking the courts, and adds the 90-wives claim.
newspaper
'Revolutionary Outbreak in Utah,' alleged Pioneer Day quote
Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell and I am glad of it.
Gerrit says the records of the July 24 speeches don't have Brigham saying this.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
How many people came to Richard's Hanukkah party, by the official count?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:07:04long
18.7 minbefore the topic starts
14sources read or named
1scripture passages
2different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1851 to 1867
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 10,124 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Government and law64 mentions, 7.6 times the show’s usual rate
- Mobs, jail and violence19 mentions, 2.3 times the show’s usual rate
- Money14 mentions, 1.9 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Brigham Young 26Jesus Christ 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Brocchus 35salsa 7citizen 6nostrils 4monument 5redress 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundBrigham Young announced on Pioneer Day 1851 that Zachary Taylor was dead and in hell and he was glad of it.
The federal government simply had no power to protect the Saints in Missouri and Illinois.
For Latter-day Saints, 'dead and damned' means burning in hell forever.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textBrigham Young did say "I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned," but in reply to a federal judge who used a religious meeting to tell the Saints they'd never been wronged.
In Latter-day Saint belief, damnation isn't forever: Brigham meant Taylor was suffering in the spirit world for his sins, not burning eternally.
Newspapers took the episode and ran, adding claims like 90 wives each for Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball; stories about the Saints grew as they traveled.
Brigham's charge stuck: even if the government couldn't act, it never even spoke up for the Saints.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadDead and in Hell seriesPart 9, 'likely the last installment.' 'No, no, no, no' (18:42, 18:53); the line finally arrives, 'dead and damned' (45:26); next comes part 9.5, and 'we'll never do another multi-parter ever again' (1:05:10, 1:05:53).
The Bee GeesRichard's number one song is 'Massachusetts' by the Bee Gees, played over a hundred times, and he swears he's never heard it; it's also 'Zachary Taylor's favorite song' (8:39, 9:20, 19:16, 19:20).
Richard's Hanukkah party159 people (not counting Gerrit), 150 latkes, aggressive dreidel and Jewish trivia for cash prizes (1:01, 1:41, 1:53, 3:04).
Kristy's CornerNo Kristy's Corner this week because the family proclamation is from the 20th century (10:13).
Nothing after the 19th century'Gerrit only knows about things from the 1800s' (10:13).
The audience: Gerrit's mom (and Rachel's mom)Rachel's mom's husband forwards a Babylon Bee meme of Calvin as Santa (15:41).
Recognized at Casa de SalsaA listener greets Gerrit in Spanish Fork, stunning his father-in-law; Richard is 'constantly mobbed' by people with ideas about implied referrals (12:53, 13:35, 14:42).
Trouble in River CityBrocchus as Lyle Langley selling the monorail; Brigham was 'monorailed' (19:20, 40:33).
Gerrit never comments in Sunday SchoolVisiting ward members who comment ten times should get a drink of water; Gerrit takes the Calvin Coolidge approach, 'You lose' (46:40, 47:39, 49:25).
Inimical toastGerrit can't say 'inimical' through a smudged newspaper: 'Richard, I smell toast' (53:49, 54:41).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardRead the full minutes of the September 1851 conference, Brocchus's speech and Brigham Young's reply (19:20, 41:46).
The Washington Monument's blocks donated by states and territories, and why its stones change color partway up (27:58).
How the 'Revolutionary Outbreak in Utah' story spread and grew in eastern newspapers (53:49).
Calvinist attempts to ban Christmas in England and Puritan Massachusetts (16:19).
Next time, part 9.5: tracking who else the Saints said was damned, including James Polk (1:05:10).
SOT Litner · S5E52.