Merry Christmas and Dead and in Hell Part 10, the Finale

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Dead and in Hell Podcast, produced by the Standard of Truth Podcast Network. I'm sorry, I'm laughing even as I say that, because I know this has gone on far too long, like most of my jokes and also all of my relationships. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.

Richard Merry Christmas, Gerrit.

Gerrit Yes, this is our Christmas drop, and we thought, you know, nothing says the babe in the manger in Bethlehem, like who's dead and in hell. That is the way that everyone thinks of Christmas.

Richard I watched the Charlie Brown Christmas with my family for family night this last week, and I believe that's what Linus said when he was on the stage, and Charlie Brown, can someone tell me what Christmas is all about? I'll tell you what Christmas is all about. Who's dead and in hell?

Gerrit Yeah, who's dead and in hell? I'm pretty sure that's the alternate ending to the Grinch saving Christmas, right? Maybe Christmas doesn't come from a store. Maybe Christmas is knowing who's burning in hell because they were mean to the Mormons. That's how Dr. Seuss ended it originally.

Richard It is.

Gerrit It's been changed over time. Well, it is Christmas. So we received an anonymous Christmas gift. This person is so desperate to conceal their anonymity that they created a fake email, which their email name is Dirk Moss. Now, those of you who have been around the podcast for a while, you know that story. If you don't know that story, it's from the very first episode. And so they made their email. It also, it contains in it DM, so this is that email address has one of the three as part of their email address, the way that they wrote it, but they have it come up as the name Dirkmaat.

Richard It is.

Gerrit It's been changed over time. Well, it is Christmas. So we received an anonymous Christmas gift. This person is so desperate to conceal their anonymity that they created a fake email, which their email name is Dirk Moss. Now, those of you who have been around the podcast for a while, you know that story. If you don't know that story, it's from the very first episode. And so they made their email. It also, it contains in it DM, so this is that email address has one of the three as part of their email address, the way that they wrote it, but they have it come up as the name Dirkmaat.

Gerrit And they delivered this to my porch. And this is, Richard, you have what? They sent us a brief note via email.

Richard Enjoy your Christmas presents on Gerrit's porch. I hope you both find endless satisfaction with a surefire way to identify lost keys or bygone proverbs inspiring enough to spark reformation that buttress against the desk reproaches of underperforming subordinates. I feel like I nailed that reading.

Gerrit Yeah, I don't know what part of AI did. So we have our gifts here. We're gonna open them up live on air.

Richard Oh, very good. I don't know what it is.

Gerrit Yeah, well, I don't know what it is either. They're wrapped. So you can actually hear the wrapping paper. This is not just me. It's not like I just went to my... I should though. I go to my closet, get some wrapping paper. That is like the old timey radio shows. Like, he came in a car.

Richard Theater of the mind, Gerrit.

Gerrit Yes, it's all theater of the mind. So as we open up this, now Richard's box at least appears to say...

Richard Break pads, yeah.

Gerrit Break pads. Now, I don't know if that's what's in here. If it is, you probably do need some.

Richard I do.

Gerrit But what do we have in the box? That's the question. Oh, I see here.

Richard What's in the box?

Gerrit I hope it's the...

Richard Brad Pitt would say, what's in the box?

Gerrit I hope it's the...

Richard Brad Pitt would say, what's in the box?

Gerrit I hope it's... You know, the brake pads that have asbestos in them. That's... What a great thing to drop off. Now, it is a question of how this person knows where I live, since I don't know who they are.

Richard Yes, I'd be terrified.

Gerrit All right. I am now seeing what Richard's gift is, and it's perhaps the greatest gift ever given to anyone ever.

Richard Oh, that's very funny. When a coin in the coffer rings the soul from Purgatory Springs. That's the sales slogan of the company that I work for.

Gerrit It is a coaster of Johann Tetzel, whom we have talked about on this podcast with his ditty, As soon as the coin in the coffer clings the soul from Purgatory Springs. Wow.

Richard Yeah, that's pretty good. He's, while he may or may not have sold indulgences, he is one of my sales icons in terms of his ability to really craft a message.

Gerrit It's a little, it's not meant for use. You need to use this as a stand. That's how it was created.

Richard Oh, I see.

Gerrit And also a gift card. If this person is such a great fan of the show, where would they get Richard a gift card?

Richard Jersey Mike's.

Gerrit Here we go. All right, Dirkmaat, you nailed it with that. Now, let's open up Gerrit's little gift here.

Richard Very nice. Number five with Rosemary Parmesan Mike's Way. Avocado if they got it.

Gerrit Okay, this is a deep cut. No one's gonna understand this, but I understand it. Do you remember when we were having a conversation about license plates, like personalized little ones, and the license plate for BART, BORT? Do you remember that? I don't. You go to those little stores, and I've never ever, ever had...

Richard Oh, it's in Idaho.

Gerrit It's a key chain. I've never been able to buy one of those little personalized license plates, because the closest they ever came to Gerrit was Derrick. And so that's what everyone called me anyway.

Richard The license plate key chain. Right.

Gerrit Yes. This is like those little license plates. And this is a key chain, an Idaho key chain. Gerrit as a personalized license plate. That is super thoughtful and a deep cut.

Richard That is very nice.

Gerrit Now there's also a gift card here, Richard. What kind of a gift card would they give me to an eating establishment?

Richard I believe your Jersey Mike's is Mod Pizza.

Gerrit And what do you know?

Richard Get out of here.

Gerrit It is a Mod Pizza gift card. Well done.

Richard Get out of here.

Gerrit It is a Mod Pizza gift card. Well done.

Richard Okay.

Gerrit I don't know who you are. I love you. I'm a little scared that you know my address. But also, thank you so much. This is super thoughtful. And what a great Christmas. A great Christmas episode where people are being condemned to hell.

Richard Okay.

Gerrit I don't know who you are. I love you. I'm a little scared that you know my address. But also, thank you so much. This is super thoughtful. And what a great Christmas. A great Christmas episode where people are being condemned to hell.

Richard Well, so just really quickly, there's a couple of additional things here. I believe we spoke about the yoo-hoo's that you left outside for the delivery drivers along with other treats and drinks.

Gerrit Yes.

Richard And you sent me a text of somebody took one. And I said, I don't believe you. Not until I thrust my hand into the dispensary whereby they would grab it, would I believe it. And then you sent me the ring camera footage.

Gerrit Of a driver taking it.

Richard Of a driver taking it.

Gerrit We have a good friend of the show, Damien, set up a, he set up a friends of the show, friends of the Standard of Truth podcast Facebook page. And on that Facebook page, I shared this, that I was putting these yoo-hoo's out because Leslie sent me a bunch of yoo-hoo's. Someone else sent me a bunch of cans of yoo-hoo, which I tried to see if that tastes better than the normal cardboard boxes of yoo-hoo.

Richard Wait, does it get colder?

Gerrit Well, so I, what I did was I got a glass clear full of ice. I mean, this wasn't just on the rocks. It was mostly rocks. And then I poured a can of yoo-hoo into it. And it's fine.

Richard Does the yoo-hoo can, much like a Coors Light can, does the H turn blue when it reaches a certain temperature?

Gerrit When it's reached the proper temperature? If that's the case, the H would never turn blue. It would never reach the proper temperature. That's kind of the whole point. So some very kind people sent those. And so I've been helping our delivery drivers get them. And you know, I asked Richard, I'm putting the yoo-hoo's out. Obviously a lot of packages coming. What's the over under his, he had said in a previous podcast, point five, that no one would actually take. So I had to send him video evidence that someone indeed did take them. And we are up to seven yoo-hoo's have been taken over the past two weeks.

Richard I feel that the video or the photographic images that you placed, like, there's better evidence of Sasquatch.

Gerrit Like, there's, I have a very old ring camera and the problem is every person who takes one, they're so embarrassed that they take it real quick. I mean, if you're picking up a yoo-hoo from someone's porch, you aren't lingering. You are running back to your car.

Richard But they look like the SAS, the image, the classic one where he's running away.

Gerrit Did you see the profile? Yeah, that's exactly right.

Richard Did you see the profile? That's very funny.

Gerrit Well, so, very grateful. Thank you for those gifts and thank you for obviously listening to the show. I'm always amazed at how deep some people listen to the show. I actually took a couple of the six packs of cans and I took them to a couple of our hardcore listeners in the ward. One of them happens to be like a 17-year-old boy who, like, he listens a ton. His name is Ian. And he's our bishop's son. And I went and delivered it to him. And then the other, I delivered it to Rachel's mom's daughter. Rachel. Yeah, actually. Yeah. Well, I mean, she could have other kids. You don't know. Only that one I delivered from Bill the Adulterer. Because the guy, he just gives and gives, you know. So anyway, well, thank you so much for everyone.

Gerrit And, you know, I don't know if anyone's going to listen to a Christmas episode. I love Christmas.

Richard Classically, the numbers say that no one's going to listen to this.

Gerrit Yeah. I mean, the numbers say that whether it's Christmas or not. So I feel like.

Richard But especially, I feel like on Christmas Day. Oh my God.

Gerrit It's true. Even our emails. You know, it's interesting. We've been getting hundreds of emails a week. And this last week, the run up before Christmas, we've only gotten several dozen instead of hundreds. And so I think a lot of people, you know, they're out trying to find some Christmas shoes. And, you know, there's not as much time to spend on it. But when we last left you, we were talking about, you know, the way that the portrayal of Judge Brocchus' his attack on the Saints and Brigham Young's reply. And I wanted, there was just a couple of things. I wanted to tidy up. I wanted to tie a Christmas bow on perhaps.

Richard It was beautiful.

Gerrit Yeah, I wanted everyone to know some of those things. Because what happens is, Lemuel Brandebury, Broughton Harris, remember we talked about Broughton Harris who was so offended his wife was just traumatized that she met multiple Mrs. Heber C. Kimball's because he had more than one wife. So she told him she wanted to leave from the day one, right? And so Broughton Harris and then Harris also got crosswise of Brigham Young and the Saints because Harris brought out all the money to pay both for the running of the capital and to pay all of the people in their political offices. But Harris tried to create a problem by claiming that because he had the official census forms that he was a year late getting there with, that none of the elections were actually legitimate because the census hadn't been taken with the proper form that had the right notation on it.

Gerrit And you know, cause what did Brigham Young do? Well, Brigham Young was a was appointed governor and so they needed a census in order to conduct elections. Harris was a year late getting to his post. So Brigham Young just conducted a census. So Harris got there and instead of saying, Hey, my bad, I'm a year late. Well, he wasn't quite a year late, but he was, he was nine months late. I mean, or 10. I mean, that's, it, it's a lot. He, he claimed that the census was all illegitimate because it wasn't done on the proper forms. You can imagine what a practical person like Brigham Young thinks of something like that. So, so none of our elections, all of the expense and the elections and the census, all of it's illegitimate because you didn't show up on time with your forms that you were supposed to bring. And so Harris refused to give the money for the operation of the legislature.

Gerrit So that, that's also not going to win friends and influence people. But I think at that point, Harris was like already wanting an excuse. So all three of these guys, Brandebury, Brocchus and Harris, and Brandebury and Brocchus, they're two of the Supreme Court justices, they leave saying that, you know, we had to flee in the middle of the night. Now this, despite the fact that Brigham Young's like, hey, let's work this out. We can, we can settle this. They're like, no, we can't settle it. And then they left. And they, of course, published to the world that, oh, the Mormons are horrible. The Mormons are, are, are evil. So here's a fun little Easter egg that you wouldn't get very often. My guess is unless you've written a master's thesis on Perry Brocchus, you, you haven't read this, or at least known what it was when you read it. Maybe people are casually reading letters from Willard Trowbridge Snow, but I, I don't know that they are.

Gerrit Are you Richard, is it?

Richard I, I think you very much know that they aren't.

Gerrit The problem is a lot of people pretend that they know things that they don't know. And so that's always, you know, there's a lot of people who are like, oh yeah, I mean, I've read that. It's like, okay. And so I have to go along with it. I mean, I meet people on the daily who will come to a fireside and say, well, I've read where Joseph Smith said this. And I'll be like, um, no, you haven't. No, no, I did. Okay. Well, I know that you haven't. I, I, I know that you read someone saying that. That's not the same thing as reading Joseph Smith saying it. Right. Right. It's really some kind of anti-thing like, no, I read that Joseph Smith was convicted for, for, uh, you know, lying to people about his seerstone. Okay. Where'd you read that? I mean, it's like in the actual court documents. Oh, that'd be great. Why don't you show them to us? Since we are doing the legal series, it'd be great to have those documents that show that that we don't actually have forward them on to us.

Gerrit Hold up.

Richard Hold up. So someone's straight up lying to you and you're like, Oh, well, we're actually doing the legal papers. That'd be super helpful.

Gerrit Actually.

Richard We've been looking everywhere for that.

Gerrit Actually.

Richard We've been looking everywhere for that.

Gerrit That's hilarious. Well, I mean, that's it. The person was fairly antagonistic.

Richard Okay. So they had, okay.

Gerrit And perhaps, look, I am a sinner. I need Christmas more than anybody. And I have got to get better at just not. I don't know. When people come at you and they're in front. Oh, part of the problem is they're kind of other people.

Richard You know, like I'm not throwing stones. I think it's a very, I think it's a very effective tactic. Well, so people will come up. So much. We're looking everywhere for that document. Oh, gosh.

Gerrit People will come up after the fireside and they'll be like, Oh, thank you. I had a question about this. I had a question. And someone will come up and be like, Well, I mean, I noticed that you didn't, you decided not to tell everyone that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud. And I'll be like, Yeah, yeah. Why do you think I didn't tell people about it? I think because you're trying to hide it. He's trying to hide the fact that he's convicted for it. I was like, Yeah, well, how do you know that he was convicted? I mean, I've read. I've read all about it. Where did you read all about it? I mean, it's in the documents. What documents are those? Because we don't have the court records from that trial. Are you saying that you have them? Because if you do, the church is willing to buy them from you, guaranteed. Guaranteed the church is.

Richard I just see you licking the tip of a pin, pulling out a check.

Gerrit How much? What do you got? I'm a professor, so I can't offer you much. But, but yeah, that does happen. And it's unfortunate and I need to. I need to be better. The problem is when people say things, cause I'll have people in firesides raise their hand and say, well, what about the fact that Joseph Smith lied about this? And they'll say it in front of everyone.

Richard Yeah, no, you gotta, you gotta put it down.

Gerrit So at that point, my only recourse. Yeah. Maybe it's not. I'm gonna have a bunch of people writing.

Richard No, no, no.

Gerrit You're only in the other cheek and be nice. And apparently I can't.

Richard No, no, no.

Gerrit You're only in the other cheek and be nice. And apparently I can't.

Richard Well, no, but so in fairness to you on this, first of all, I think it's hilarious. Second of all, although I'm a terrible ally on this, so that you shouldn't listen to that.

Gerrit Go for it. You're the hype man. That's like, yeah, you already said about you, Johnny.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard Yeah. No, I'm the guy from Cobra Kai in the background. I'm saying, put them in a potty bag, Johnny, but no. But so, I mean, I love it. I love it when you do that. But in that setting, I don't know, I've attended probably 20, 30 of your firesides, some in Lithuanian, some in English. And they're great. And for the most part, the questions are great, the conversation is great, and it's really productive. But I have seen antagonistic questions that are attacking Joseph Smith or attacking the church, and Joseph was a merciful man.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard Yeah. No, I'm the guy from Cobra Kai in the background. I'm saying, put them in a potty bag, Johnny, but no. But so, I mean, I love it. I love it when you do that. But in that setting, I don't know, I've attended probably 20, 30 of your firesides, some in Lithuanian, some in English. And they're great. And for the most part, the questions are great, the conversation is great, and it's really productive. But I have seen antagonistic questions that are attacking Joseph Smith or attacking the church, and Joseph was a merciful man.

Gerrit Yeah, yeah. He bore with you these things, but I will not. I mean, to paraphrase Brigham Young in winter quarters. So yeah, I mean, I occasionally have that. I had someone in one of my recent, I've done a lot of firesides lately, and I had someone in one of my recent ones. This was, at least it wasn't during the general question time, but it was when there were like 25 people surrounding me asking questions at the end. And they made a pejorative statement. And I want to say that I did a very good job and I kindly responded. And I wasn't mean at all, but I did demonstrate to everyone there that the person didn't have any idea of what they were talking about. And I felt bad about it. But you can't just declare something horrific about Joseph Smith and not even know where it comes from and do it publicly.

Gerrit And obviously you knew what you're doing. You know what I mean? And that's the frustrating thing too. When people are doing it, they're deliberately doing it in front of other people. And they then are stunned when you have a response that's like, yeah, well, where did that come from? And of course they don't know. It's a stunning thing. I don't know that there's any other more poorly prepared antagonist in the world than anti-moral. It's crazy. Like I'm going to go to your faith event and then I'm going to throw out a ridiculous accusation, but I have not done enough homework to even know what I am quoting at it. That is crazy levels of hubris. Don't you think?

Richard Yes, that is.

Gerrit And it also shows that it's worked for them, that they've been around other people and they've just said, well, you know, Joseph Smith said this and they're like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, really? I didn't and no one's ever called them on it.

Richard Well, that's one of the things, right? So like one of the tricks of the trade is to be able to bring stuff up that people haven't necessarily heard before and there's decent reasons why they haven't heard it before because it's a terrible argument or it's super, you know, just kind of out there or they're like, yeah, how come I haven't ever heard that Spanish conquistador with blood dripping from his neck appeared to Joseph Smith?

Gerrit I don't know. Why haven't you heard that?

Richard Because it was written in 1973.

Gerrit But I mean, we digress a little bit as we are want to do. We often digress. And so back to this letter by Willard Trowbridge Snow, who Richard in his leisure time reads, it just so happens, okay, so he's on his way to England, okay? He's on his way to Europe. So he's going back from Salt Lake to, I don't know, New York or Boston or somewhere to go to go to England. And on his trip back, guess who he crosses paths with? Perry Brocchus.

Richard How about that?

Gerrit Who's on his way back to Washington, having fled the territory, because what happens is those officials, they're like, oh, we can't govern here at all. And they just leave, even though Brigham Young is like, come on, we obviously can work this out. And you know, I think all of them realized that they weren't going to be able to grift very much in the territory. And that's the primary way of making money with a territorial appointment. And you know, they wanted to leave. So he writes this letter back to Wilford Woodruff. And he says that we were accompanied by Brother Shurtleff and Jedediah M. Grant. We loaded the stage and went to St. Joseph, St. Joseph, Missouri, where we learned that the steamer El Paso had just left the landing, containing those officers, fugitives from justice. We therefore hired a couple of vehicles and rode in the night to Weston. So the best part is. This dude finds out, okay, Willard Snow finds out that the steamer just ahead of them, that just left, has Perry Brocchus and these runaway officials on it.

Gerrit So they decide to hire some stage coaches to get them ahead of the steamer so they're at the next stop, so they can get on the boat with the next steamer.

Richard So they pull like a T. Ankom and Lehigh and like go out around them at night and...

Gerrit Yep, that's exactly right. So we rode to Weston where we stepped on board and found ourselves in the presence of those great dignitaries and accompanied them to St. Louis. The passengers on board petitioned them for a speech, but they never so much as peeped publicly at our presence. So first of all, remember, the whole way out, they were trying to speak to everybody because they were just so important. The whole way back, people are like, hey, why don't you tell us what happened in Utah? Not saying a word. Not saying a word, right? They fuddled and fiddled and danced one cotillion and part of another, and they finally flatted out. I'm not entirely sure what that meant. Of Captain Day getting tipsy, Day was the Indian agent who left, and Brandebury was disgusted. Brocchus paraded himself at the head of the table in the gentleman's cabin three times a day to eat, and he had an extra table twice a day set in the ladies' cabin with wine and women and fruit of all kinds and flesh aplenty, both of fish and fowl, while to pass the time.

Gerrit A young Kentuckian had to tell the anecdote about the, he writes a different word for this, the donkey who was invited to participate in music and dancing in a party of young people down east and applied that to the high judge Brocchus. But alas, on reaching St. Louis, the captain of the boat could not get his pay of Brocchus. And he went on towards Washington without paying his extravagant bill as the captain said. So apparently this guy is whining and dining three times a day in the, in the expensive cabin. He's setting up a table for ladies trying to, you know, curry their favor and apparently the captain of this boat tells Snow that Brocchus refused to pay him and just took off without paying the bill of all this extra food and money and wine he'd spent.

Richard Well, I mean, he's very important, Gerrit.

Gerrit I'm sure he was like, well, eventually the government will take care of this, that kind of thing. So they, of course, they go and the fact that they go back, they make a huge deal prevailing to that, you know, that Utah's in rebellion. You've got to do something about this. What's interesting is one of the judges who stayed and that judge is Zerubbabel, your favorite name, Zerubbabel Snow. He actually writes a private letter to a Missouri newspaper that the newspaper then, of course, just publishes, because that who cares if it's a private letter. If you think that things like that happen now with like, well, they recorded the conversation. Yeah, it happened then too, by the way. People like, this is a letter just for you. Like, well, I'm going to publish it. So Zerubbabel Snow. So at first, everyone was shocked and horrified, but then there were a few newspapers that were like, so why did these guys leave their appointments?

Gerrit I mean, so they just left the people there without any federal oversight at all. And one of these newspapers in Missouri had kind of said, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. And so Zerubbabel Snow wrote to them privately and they decided to take a bunch of it and publish it. Cause that's what, you know, what makes it makes for good news copy. He says, you know, I'm happy to, you've you've taken notice of the affair in Utah. No man more deeply regrets than myself, the unfortunate affair. It is also deeply regretted by the people here, but it cannot now be helped. So they make the best of it. I see you in a few unimportant items have been laboring under a mistake of facts. I will therefore correct you. You seem to have supposed that all the judges left. This is a mistake. I am one of the judges appointed for this station and I remained here for the reason that I thought it my duty to do so. There are indiscreet persons here, but no person has been, in my opinion, more indiscreet than the Honorable Perry Brocchus.

Gerrit I never heard one word uttered against Lemuel Brandebury nor BD. Harris until they espoused the private difficulties of Perry Brocchus. Even now, nothing is against either of them except what relates to this espousal and their desertion. If desertion be the proper word used of their duties, Mr. Harris and Mr. Brandebury were both, as far as I know, well received here. And they might, as they had taken a straightforward course in the line of duty, paid no attention to anything else and have been highly useful to the government and having been honored and respected here. The government officers, except the Indian agents, did not receive any outfits for this territory, nor was any part of their salaries paid until they'd taken the oath of office of this territory. It is not correct, as you supposed, as would have been the case had I also left that there is no legal method here of enforcing the laws and correcting public and private wrongs.

Gerrit I have held my course and things have moved off with as much regularities could be expected in a new government. Some irregularities, of course, occur. He's trying to say, look, it's brand new territory, right? And in my opinion, more than we are accustomed to see in the old states, but whoever duly reflects on the state of affairs that must have existed here cannot reasonably expect a less number of irregularities than I find. In my last session of court, four persons were convicted of larceny, one Mormon and three immigrants. One of the last named, in my opinion, was drawn into it by the evil council of others. The Mormon is now undergoing imprisonment. And one of the things the paper said is, a Mormon could never be convicted of a crime in Utah territory. And so Judge Ruble Snow is like, oh yeah, well, the last guy just threw in prison was a Mormon. So yes, maybe they can be. It's one of those things that people say that they think must be the case.

Gerrit As if Mormons are fine with people robbing them as long as they're Mormons. Like, oh, that guy robbed me? Well, he, I mean, he's in the Sunday school presidency. So I guess that's fine. I mean, it's the same kind of pejoratives that are made against minority groups all the time, right? That they're so benighted that they don't have the ability to think for themselves and that kind of stuff. Anyway, he goes on to say that, you know, the claim that there's only Mormons who serve in juries. These two cases created some excitement before conviction as the property stolen had passed by sale through the hands of very honest traders here. The officer prudently called as trovers jurors, one half Mormons and one half other citizens. So he's proving like, you just said that only Mormons serve on juries in this case, half of the jurors were Mormons and the other half weren't Mormons. So I guess it's not all Mormons serving on juries.

Gerrit And you got a conviction of a Mormon and a non Mormon, three non Mormons in a jury that was half Mormons and half non Mormons. He's trying to prove the point. You're saying that there's no justice here, that only Mormons serve on juries, that there's no judges left. I'm a judge who's left. It's not only Mormons who serve on juries, and yes, Mormons get convicted of crimes. I know because I just sent one to the penitentiary.

Richard But so half being Mormons, when what percentage is Mormon like? Ninety percent, right?

Gerrit Exactly. You are grabbing people from immigrant trains and saying, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? No, you're going to be a juror today. There are very few that are permanent residents at this point in 1831.

Richard So for it to be half non-Mormons is pretty significant percentage.

Gerrit Yeah, and it's very, I mean, in many ways, it's super prejudice, right? Like it's supposed to be a jury of your peers, not a jury of 1% of your population.

Richard But all the more reason, though, right?

Gerrit That it's right, because well, that's the point Zerubbabel Snow is trying to make. And then, you know, because the way that the officials tell it, oh, we were driven, our lives were threatened. We had to leave the territory or we would be killed. Zerubbabel Snow, no person has been driven from this territory. No man's property or person has been violently assailed or anything of that kind that has come under my judicial or any other notice, except the above mention. As good order prevails here as in any place as I ever was in, in the same number of inhabitants, very respectfully, your obedient servant, Zerubbabel Snow. So, I mean, they published it even though they weren't supposed to, but he's essentially saying that it's all lawlessness, saying that there's only Mormons. It's just not true. And so the thing is, this is why Millard Fillmore really should be not dead and in hell.

Gerrit Okay, Millard Fillmore is really one of the great presidents interacting with the Latter-day Saints. Why? Because what Millard Fillmore could have done is taken the word of his appointees who came back making all kinds of claims. And he didn't. Instead, he had the Secretary of State look into it and the Secretary of State wrote and he did an investigation, saw that this was what you might call today a nothing burger. First of all, you guys speaking in the General Conference and making the Mormons mad, and then you guys fleeing the territory like you couldn't stay there when there's no credible threat to you at all, you need to go back to your appointed place. That this is what, this is your job in the government, or you can resign your commission and not get paid.

Gerrit That's what you can do. You can resign your position, but you can't just leave the territory and still expect to be paid for not being there. And they of course protest and becomes a really big deal. But Millard Fillmore's government orders them to go back. They don't go back and so they're forced to resign. And it ends up making Brocchus look worse. But let me give you a little bit of the aftermath of this. Not just a Willard Trowbridge Snow letter, which was fun. That was fun, I thought. Brigham Young is going to bring this up a couple of other times, because it is gonna spread everywhere that Brigham Young said that Zachary Taylor was dead and in Hell. Zachary Taylor was dead and in Hell, right? Which who is the person that is being mentioned, if you're wondering? Who's dead and in Hell? Well, we've listed a lot of people at this point, but Zachary Taylor is who the alleged is. So in 1855, Brigham Young is giving, so this, you know, three years down the road, right?

Gerrit And this is, Brigham Young brings up this whole thing, right? He said, corrupt men cannot walk these streets with impunity. And if that is alienism to the government, amen to it. The Constitution of the United States, we sustain all the day long and we will sustain it and it will sustain and shield us. Well, the men who say we are aliens and cry out Mormon disturbance, they will go to hell. So here's some other people going to hell, people who are accusing the Mormons of not being good citizens. There have been officers here who were not fit to live in our midst. And they ran home and they raised a cry, Mormon disturbances, Mormon rebellion, Mormon war, treasoners. But their day is over. When a man professes to be my friend and the friend of this people, he will take my council instead of stirring up strife and practicing iniquity. I dislike the willfully corrupt.

Gerrit And by and by, I will come out thunder like, as I have done upon others when practicing iniquity. As I did upon a certain individual, when he made his glorious speech and insulted this people from highest to lowest. Now he's, he didn't say the word Brocchus but also Brocchus. We know exactly who he's talking about. I chastised him and he ran off and reported me as saying those things which I did not say. It was told him while he was on the planes that President Zachary Taylor was dead and damned. And it has gone through the states from one side to another side that I said so. It was first given out that the Mormon said so. And then it became that Brigham said so. Right? So Brigham's like tracking this, the anatomy of him claiming that Zachary Taylor was dead and in hell.

Gerrit It's like, first of all, I didn't even say it. And when they first said it, they didn't even say that I said it. They said that Mormon said it. And then it became Brigham Young said it. So the original question we got was, did Brigham Young actually say that Zachary Taylor was dead and in hell? I don't actually know. But here he seems to be saying that this is the iteration of this. So he says, it was given out, the Mormon said so, and then the Brigham said so. Well, I backed it up because I knew that it was true. So essentially he's saying, look, I'm not the one who said that Zachary Taylor was dead and in hell, but also Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell. So what do you want me to do about this? I mean, I'm not the one, I didn't set the line on the BYU Texas Tech game, but also I knew that Texas Tech was gonna win that game.

Gerrit You know what I mean? Like what do you want me to do? And so Brigham Young, of course, he's speaking to his own people here, but then he makes a point that really should have been the point from the beginning for Perry Brocchus. Why can't a Mormon preacher say that someone needs to repent or they're going to go to hell? Protestant ministers do it all the time. You will hear Protestant ministers right now say, if President Trump doesn't repent, you'll go to hell, right? I mean, if he doesn't trust in Jesus, if he doesn't turn away from... Preachers have always said that if leaders don't follow Jesus, they're going to go to hell. And so Brigham Young makes this point. I have just as good a right to say that President Taylor is in hell as to say that any other miserable sinner is there.

Gerrit Wasn't he, was Taylor any more flesh than flesh and blood? I have as good a right to canvass him in a religious point of view as I have to canvass the peasant upon the dung hill. Taylor has gone there and so have many others, and the Lord Almighty is removing bitter branches as foretold in the Book of Mormon. The newspapers are teeming with statements that I said President Pearson all hell couldn't remove me from office. I will tell you what I did say and what I now say. The Lord reigns and rules in the armies of heaven, and he does his pleasure among the inhabitants of the earth. He sets up a kingdom here, and he pulls down another there at his pleasure. He walks in the midst of the people and they know it not. He makes kings, presidents, governors at his pleasure.

Gerrit Hence, I conclude that I shall be governor of Utah territory just as long as God wants me to be. And for that time, neither the president of the United States nor any other power can prevent it. Then, brethren and sisters, be not worried about me being dismissed from office, for when the president appoints another man to be governor of Utah territory, you may acknowledge that the Lord has done it, for we should acknowledge his hand in all things. That's not quite the I'm raging against the government and rebelling against what they do. In fact, he's telling people, listen, if God wills that I no longer be the governor anymore, I won't be. And that's God's will, obviously, because God does what God wants to have done. So he's more kind of giving, saying, look, we follow what God has said. Now, one last part of this puzzle, I could go on. Clearly, I could go on.

Gerrit We could have Dead and in Hell part 95. The podcast could be called Dead and in Hell, Merry Christmas. In fact, we should try that. Let's workshop that. Dead and in Hell, Merry Christmas as the new title of the podcast.

Richard We have a very festive illustration for the podcast. Art that is coming out today because it's Christmas. But let me see if we can workshop some Dead and in Hell.

Gerrit Merry Christmas.

Richard Merry Christmas cover art.

Gerrit Or maybe Merry Christmas Dead and in Hell. I feel like.

Richard Okay, Merry Christmas Dead and in Hell. I like it.

Gerrit Yeah. So there's one more time that Brigham, well, there's more than one more time, but one more important time that Brigham Young mentions this. And he mentions it in the midst of the kind of 1857 crisis. This is when the army is being sent to Utah. When people are saying the Mormons are in rebellion. And so this is the Latter-day Saints at their most, this is when they are saying their most strident things against the leaders of the United States government, because they at least are being told that an army is on its way to kill them. Now, in the end, that isn't what happens. But when you're a Latter-day Saint in 1857, when someone says we're taking an army to exterminate you, you take them seriously because you've had armies march to exterminate you, right?

Gerrit So, I don't know where, there's a lot that I could say here, but let me share this part, because it goes back to our point. It is a pretty bold stand for this people to take, to say that they will not be controlled by the corrupt administrators of our general government. We will be controlled by them if they will be controlled by the Constitution and laws. But they will not. Many of them don't care anymore about the Constitution and the laws that they make than they do about the laws of another nation. That class trample the rights of the people under their feet, while there are so many who would like to honor them. All we have ever asked is for our constitutional rights. We wish the laws of our government be honored, and we have ever honored them, but they are trampled under their foot by the administrators. There cannot be a more damnable, dastardly order issued than was issued by the administration to this people while they were in an Indian country in 1846.

Gerrit Before we left Nauvoo, not less than two United States senators came to receive a pledge from us that we would leave the United States. And then, while we were doing our best to leave their borders, the poor, low, degraded curses sent a requisition of 500 men, of our men, to go and fight their battles. That was President Polk. And he is now weltering in Hell with old Zachary Taylor, where the present administrators will be soon if they do not repent. Liars have reported that this people have committed treason. And upon their lies, the president has ordered troops to aid in officering this territory. And if those officers are like many that have previously been sent here, and we have no reason to believe that they are or that they would not come when they knew that they were not wanted, if they are poor, miserable black legs, broken down political hacks, robbers and whoremongers, men that are not fit for civilized society, so that they must dragoon them upon us for officers, I feel that I won't bear such cursed treatment.

Gerrit And that is enough to say, for we are just as free as the mountain air. I do not lift my voice against the great and glorious government guaranteed to every citizen by our Constitution, but against those corrupt administrators who trample the Constitution and just laws under their feet. So like Brigham's trying to say, we love the United States, we love the Constitution. We don't love people who lie and order death and people who are, you know, who make false claims, who are not living up to their oath of office, right? Which as I've mentioned before, there was a great study that was done of political appointees to territorial offices. And what it found was what you might think. The vast majority of them, not just a majority, the vast majority never completed their tenures in office.

Gerrit And nearly all of them were people that weren't wanted in any other branch of the government. And so when Brigham Young says, all you're sending to us is broken down political hacks, robbers and whoremongers. In other words, you're sending as the number one attraction to the local county fair, the one hit wonder band whose hit was 30 years ago. And maybe you still want to see them. Maybe you still loved them.

Richard Well, yeah, Oreo Speedwagon's got some hits.

Gerrit Well, I mean, they've got more than one. Let's not call Oreo Speedwagon one in one. Okay, Richard's offended me. No, I'm the one who would have been there. Richard's offended me.

Richard Okay, so you're saying aha with take on me. That's what you're saying.

Gerrit I'm saying you'd be lucky to get take on me in a local county fair. That's, you'd be lucky to get aha. But anyway, so here you have, this is 1857, where Brigham Young certainly believes. Now, when I talked about this in my dissertation, one of the points I wanted to make is, Brigham Young feels fairly free in saying that President Polk and Zachary Taylor are going to Hell, in part because we don't believe in Hell, not the Protestant Hell. So look, that's a very offensive thing for Brocchus to hear. You're trying to tell me that Zachary Taylor is in Hell forever, because that's what Protestants believe Hell is. When Brigham Young believes that Hell is spirit prison, where you go to suffer for your unrepented of sins, but that eventually Brigham Young is going to declare dozens of times that everyone is going to go to a kingdom of heaven and glory.

Gerrit So it's one of those tempest in a teacup things to begin with. Zachary Taylor, I'm sure, has some sins he needs to repent for. Among them, you know, committing to help the saints and then not helping them. I'm going to guess that's something, right? But Brigham Young is not saying he is for trillions upon trillions of years going to be writhing in the agonies of Hell because Brigham Young doesn't believe that Hell even exists. That the hell you go to when you die, you go to spirit prison because you haven't repented because you haven't embraced the gospel. But as Joseph Smith taught, as soon as we embrace the gospel, whether alive or dead, you can be saved. It's, you know, to bring it all back to Christmas, after a lot of dead and in Hell, let me bring it all back to Christmas.

Gerrit It's the great aspect of the restoration. One of the things that we have gained that no one else actually believes. Now, some people say it, but their religions don't believe it. Is that everyone's going to be saved in a kingdom of heaven. We believe that part of the atonement, as Brigham Young said, how are these people going to be saved who never accepted Jesus? Through the atonement of Jesus Christ, the great condescension of God, that Jehovah, Jesus, before before he came down, was all-powerful, was the God of Israel. He's the one who parted the Red Sea. He brought fire down from heaven for Elijah. He destroyed the armies of the Assyrians in front of Isaiah. That same all-powerful God, condescended to pass through a veil, to give up Godhood and become a man, and became that baby in Bethlehem.

Gerrit The condescension, I don't think we can understand, because you and I, as Brigham Young says, are not even capacitated to understand. We don't have the ability to understand the glory of the telestial kingdom. The kingdom that the liars, robbers and whoremongers are going to is so great and so glorious that you and I can't comprehend it unless God shows it to us in a vision. And Jesus, the creator of everything that is and all things that in them are, this all-powerful God, Condescended to pass through a veil to become that baby in the manger.

Gerrit And had to relearn, grace for grace, who he really was. And that's why Doctrine and Covenants section 93 is so incredible. That he received not of a fullness at first, but he received grace for grace until he achieved or received a fullness. And so as we're celebrating Christmas, presents and all that, all kinds of fun gifts, thank you to our anonymous donors. The greatest gift obviously will always be that an immortal, omnipotent God became like us and suffered for me and took upon him all of our sins and all of our weaknesses and all of our sicknesses.

Gerrit And that the great teaching in the Book of Mormon, why, why would he do this if he's all powerful? Now, the Spirit knoweth all things, but nevertheless, that he might know how to succor his people he suffered. The Atonement in some way gave Jesus a better understanding or a better ability to help each of us when we suffer. So I know we joke around a lot on the podcast. I know that sometimes you wonder how serious I can be. But I want to leave with you my testimony. I know some of you are struggling. I know because you email, and I know that two, three, four, five times as many of you are struggling, and you aren't sending an email. I know there are those of you that are in part member families, and you're barely hanging on and someone's attacking your faith.

Gerrit I know those of you who have had your heart ripped out by this world or by loved ones in this world, and you're just trying to hold on. Some of us have suffered horrible, unfair, tragic deaths of our loved ones. Some of us had financial reverses, and some of us just don't know whether we can keep hanging on. I testify to you that the Lord Jesus Christ died for you, and he didn't just take upon him your sins, but he did. So if what you're laboring in is sin, it can be taken from you. But he also took your sufferings and your sicknesses so that he can sucker you. So that he can provide the amount of help that you need to make it through your terrible Gethsemane.

Gerrit Just as the father sent the angel from heaven, strengthening him when Jesus cried out. So I am grateful. One of the reasons why I'm so grateful for the gospel, is I know who Jesus Christ is. I know who he is because of his revelations to the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know what our purpose on this earth is. I know that Jesus died for me because I know that Jesus was seen by Joseph. Joseph saw him and not just one time, dozens of times and not just by himself with other people. It's not just Joseph who says that Jesus has risen. Sidney Rigdon saw him, the resurrected Lord. Oliver Cowdery saw the resurrected Lord. Frederick G. Williams saw the resurrected Lord. Dozens of people in company with Joseph saw Jesus.

Gerrit So if you're wondering, well, maybe Joseph just thought he saw Jesus. Well, that's not a very good argument because it's dozens of people. And the testimony they give last of all is that he lives, for they saw him even on the right hand of God. So I bear that testimony to you, and I pray that whatever your suffering is, it is mitigated through the atonement of our Savior. And hopefully, at least two people listen to this. The great gentleman who brought us her Christmas gifts, and Rachel's mom. At least we'll have two that go out there. So thank you so much for joining us.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

Merry Christmas and Dead and in Hell Part 10, the Finale

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

A Charlie Brown Christmas (Linus's speech)

Johann Tetzel's indulgence slogan, on a gift coaster

Willard Trowbridge Snow to Wilford Woodruff

Zerubbabel Snow, private letter published by a Missouri newspaper

Zerubbabel Snow letter, on order in the territory

Millard Fillmore administration's order, through the Secretary of State, to the runaway officials

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse, on preaching about presidents

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse, on remaining governor

Brigham Young, 1857 discourse during the Utah War crisis

Brigham Young, 1857 discourse, on the Constitution

D&C 93:12-13

Alma 7:12-13 (identified, not cited on air)

Luke 22:43 (identified, not cited on air)

D&C 76:22-23

Episode quiz

What name did the anonymous Christmas gift-giver use?

Fun with Numbers

From 1831 to 1973

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

In General Conference

Go deeper

Merry Christmas and Dead and in Hell Part 10, the Finale

The Dead and in Hell podcast

A Charlie Brown Christmas (Linus's speech)

Johann Tetzel's indulgence slogan, on a gift coaster

Willard Trowbridge Snow to Wilford Woodruff

Zerubbabel Snow, private letter published by a Missouri newspaper

Zerubbabel Snow letter, on order in the territory

Millard Fillmore administration's order, through the Secretary of State, to the runaway officials

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse, on preaching about presidents

Brigham Young, 1855 discourse, on remaining governor

Brigham Young, 1857 discourse during the Utah War crisis

Brigham Young, 1857 discourse, on the Constitution

D&C 93:12-13

Alma 7:12-13 (identified, not cited on air)

Luke 22:43 (identified, not cited on air)

D&C 76:22-23

What name did the anonymous Christmas gift-giver use?

From 1831 to 1973

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words