I've got 20 minutes on reciprocity. I've got another 20 minutes on prospect theory. I could just go.
Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 2 · 1:14:36
President Holland and Avoiding Deception
The 'blessing' naming young Joseph Smith III as his father's successor, supposedly from Thomas Bullock's papers, is one of Mark Hofmann's forgeries and has been known as one for about 25 years.
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The question ·
A missionary's friend back home says Joseph Smith named his son Joseph as his successor, at Liberty Jail and at the temple lot in Nauvoo before 3,000 witnesses. Is that true?
An elder (listener)
Gerrit, nearly voiceless after a trip to Israel, and Richard remember President Holland, from a box lunch with Joseph Smith Papers staff to his plea that if we knew what he knows, we would run. Then a bishopric member named Kevin sends in a fake 'church' email meant to undermine faith, and Gerrit walks through how to spot it and why one deliberate lie should end your trust in a source. After Sheila's report from Fairbanks that YooHoo finally froze at twenty below, a missionary asks about a friend's claim that Joseph named his son as successor. Gerrit shows the key document is a Hofmann forgery, the later Temple Lot testimony has big problems, and the real test is which church kept Joseph's temple ordinances.
Who comes upJeffrey R. HollandJoseph SmithJoseph Smith IIIBrigham YoungThomas BullockMark HofmannJames WhiteheadPhilastus HurlbutJames E. Faust
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Back from Israel, no voice
Gerrit apologizes for his croak, and Richard offers twenty minutes on reciprocity as a backup plan.
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386 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm feeling very under the weather. We should have just canceled doing an episode, but I'm joined by my usurper who was waiting for just the moment. As soon as I told him, my throat wouldn't work. He said, well, you know, I could just do the whole show.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm feeling very under the weather. We should have just canceled doing an episode, but I'm joined by my usurper who was waiting for just the moment. As soon as I told him, my throat wouldn't work. He said, well, you know, I could just do the whole show.
Richard I've got 20 minutes on reciprocity. I've got another 20 minutes on prospect theory. I could just go. Oh my gosh.
Richard I've got 20 minutes on reciprocity. I've got another 20 minutes on prospect theory. I could just go. Oh my gosh.
Gerrit Well, I'm joined by my friend, Richard LeDuc. I do apologize that I, for multiple times during the show, as I try to breathe and or talk, I will probably start falling into an NPR whisper voice, where, thank you so much for joining us on NPR. Notice I could talk like this all day. There's a certain sense to the timbre and the whisper that it works.
Gerrit Well, I'm joined by my friend, Richard LeDuc. I do apologize that I, for multiple times during the show, as I try to breathe and or talk, I will probably start falling into an NPR whisper voice, where, thank you so much for joining us on NPR. Notice I could talk like this all day. There's a certain sense to the timbre and the whisper that it works.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. Really excited to be here. I haven't seen you for several weeks. I am legitimately excited to see you.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. Really excited to be here. I haven't seen you for several weeks. I am legitimately excited to see you.
Gerrit It was that kind of a bender.
Gerrit It was that kind of a bender.
Richard You just came back from Israel. It's very exciting. No international incidents while you were there, so we're happy about that.
Richard You just came back from Israel. It's very exciting. No international incidents while you were there, so we're happy about that.
Gerrit That they found out about.
Gerrit That they found out about.
Richard That they found out about. It's nice to have you back. There's so many things to talk about. We have 400 million emails that we will have read, but we'll not cover here.
Richard That they found out about. It's nice to have you back. There's so many things to talk about. We have 400 million emails that we will have read, but we'll not cover here.
Gerrit We're very sorry to everyone. We read all the emails. We really do. We just can't read all of them.
Gerrit We're very sorry to everyone. We read all the emails. We really do. We just can't read all of them.
Richard On the air. Ever. Ever. So, dead in hell 11, Gerrit, take it away.
Richard On the air. Ever. Ever. So, dead in hell 11, Gerrit, take it away.
Gerrit No, we put that to bed.
Gerrit No, we put that to bed.
Richard Okay.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit We decided that we're no longer going to talk about anything related to Utah history.
Gerrit We decided that we're no longer going to talk about anything related to Utah history.
Richard Nothing for your dissertation, at least.
Richard Nothing for your dissertation, at least.
Gerrit Yeah, we have to steer clear. In fact, if anything's in my dissertation, we have to just say, yeah, that's like season 38 material, even if it's not unplugging me.
Gerrit Yeah, we have to steer clear. In fact, if anything's in my dissertation, we have to just say, yeah, that's like season 38 material, even if it's not unplugging me.
Richard Yes. But so there were a couple of things that we wanted to cover and to talk about. And I think one of the things that you had said in our pre-production meeting was just to spend a minute on the passing of President Holland.
Richard Yes. But so there were a couple of things that we wanted to cover and to talk about. And I think one of the things that you had said in our pre-production meeting was just to spend a minute on the passing of President Holland.
Gerrit Oh, man. Yeah, that was really sad. And everybody obviously, you know, tributes have poured in and President Holland where it had the funeral. I mean, so this episode is going to come out a little bit, you know, too much after the fact. But it's a tough thing when apostles that really help to shape your testimony as a young man when they pass away. And I got to have kind of two encounters with President Holland, the encounter as a young man who was just blown away by his teaching abilities and his directness and his doctrine. And then I got to encounter him working on the Joseph Smith Papers, because when I was first hired, he was one of the apostles that was reviewing the stuff that was produced.
Gerrit Oh, man. Yeah, that was really sad. And everybody obviously, you know, tributes have poured in and President Holland where it had the funeral. I mean, so this episode is going to come out a little bit, you know, too much after the fact. But it's a tough thing when apostles that really help to shape your testimony as a young man when they pass away. And I got to have kind of two encounters with President Holland, the encounter as a young man who was just blown away by his teaching abilities and his directness and his doctrine. And then I got to encounter him working on the Joseph Smith Papers, because when I was first hired, he was one of the apostles that was reviewing the stuff that was produced.
Gerrit You know, he would go through it and check it. And that reminded me of interactions that we had had. Again, I'm not important. Nobody knows who I am. If you were to ask President Holland, who's Gerrit Dirkmaat? He would say, who's Derek Drakmaat? And that would be the response. Okay, so he doesn't know who I am. Speaking of which, while we were in Israel, if you go to the Garden Tomb, the Garden Tomb is operated by an evangelical Christian group. I believe it's the site where Jesus was buried and that it's the actual tomb that Jesus was in. And so when they talk to you about it, it's very much a missionary pitch, telling you you're saved only by faith.
Gerrit You know, he would go through it and check it. And that reminded me of interactions that we had had. Again, I'm not important. Nobody knows who I am. If you were to ask President Holland, who's Gerrit Dirkmaat? He would say, who's Derek Drakmaat? And that would be the response. Okay, so he doesn't know who I am. Speaking of which, while we were in Israel, if you go to the Garden Tomb, the Garden Tomb is operated by an evangelical Christian group. I believe it's the site where Jesus was buried and that it's the actual tomb that Jesus was in. And so when they talk to you about it, it's very much a missionary pitch, telling you you're saved only by faith.
Gerrit We know this. For whatever reason, the pastor leading our tour assumed we were a Christian group. I mean, he didn't ask, are you from Utah? Or he would have been like, well, obviously you're not. And that apparently the Christian groups that come are always being led by a pastor. So this very, you know, erudite British pastor who's leading us on this tour, he says, oh, you know, who's your group leader? Who are you here with? And so people say, oh, we're here with Gerrit. And, you know, he comes over and shakes my hand. Good to meet you. And I said, hi, I'm Gerrit Dirkmaat. What he heard is Derrick and proceeded to call me Derrick.
Gerrit We know this. For whatever reason, the pastor leading our tour assumed we were a Christian group. I mean, he didn't ask, are you from Utah? Or he would have been like, well, obviously you're not. And that apparently the Christian groups that come are always being led by a pastor. So this very, you know, erudite British pastor who's leading us on this tour, he says, oh, you know, who's your group leader? Who are you here with? And so people say, oh, we're here with Gerrit. And, you know, he comes over and shakes my hand. Good to meet you. And I said, hi, I'm Gerrit Dirkmaat. What he heard is Derrick and proceeded to call me Derrick.
Gerrit And now this is before my voice was gone. So that wasn't an excuse. But not only that, he gave me an honorary doctorate of divinity. He assumed that we were a Christian group. And I mean, traditional Christians, obviously we're all Christians, but they don't think we are. And started calling me Pastor Derrick. And he called me Pastor Derrick the entire time.
Gerrit And now this is before my voice was gone. So that wasn't an excuse. But not only that, he gave me an honorary doctorate of divinity. He assumed that we were a Christian group. And I mean, traditional Christians, obviously we're all Christians, but they don't think we are. And started calling me Pastor Derrick. And he called me Pastor Derrick the entire time.
Richard The tour had to love that, by the way.
Richard The tour had to love that, by the way.
Gerrit Every single person. Because he's speaking on this mic headsets, so everyone's listening as they're walking around. People are just laughing the whole time he's trying to give this tour of what they believe to be the sacred spot where the crucifixion and the resurrection took place. But he keeps talking to me about, in a nice English accent, that he's sure Pastor Derrick has talked to you before about what it was like when the women came to the tomb and Jesus wasn't there. But people are having a hard time taking it seriously. Because, A, he keeps calling me Derrick. B, he thinks I'm a Pastor. Both of which are not correct. And yeah, they very much, but I thought, you know what? That's a kind brother in Christ. Someone who will immediately assume that you have a doctrine of divinity and that you're a pastor of a Christian congregation.
Gerrit Every single person. Because he's speaking on this mic headsets, so everyone's listening as they're walking around. People are just laughing the whole time he's trying to give this tour of what they believe to be the sacred spot where the crucifixion and the resurrection took place. But he keeps talking to me about, in a nice English accent, that he's sure Pastor Derrick has talked to you before about what it was like when the women came to the tomb and Jesus wasn't there. But people are having a hard time taking it seriously. Because, A, he keeps calling me Derrick. B, he thinks I'm a Pastor. Both of which are not correct. And yeah, they very much, but I thought, you know what? That's a kind brother in Christ. Someone who will immediately assume that you have a doctrine of divinity and that you're a pastor of a Christian congregation.
Gerrit When in fact, you just have a Dutch name that's hard to pronounce.
Gerrit When in fact, you just have a Dutch name that's hard to pronounce.
Richard That's pretty funny. Pastor Derrick. Pastor Derrick's more of a youth pastor name.
Richard That's pretty funny. Pastor Derrick. Pastor Derrick's more of a youth pastor name.
Gerrit It really does sound like that. Yeah. Maybe that's why he was treating me the way he was. Okay.
Gerrit It really does sound like that. Yeah. Maybe that's why he was treating me the way he was. Okay.
Richard Yeah. You're not going to be on the main stage for sure. You're going to be, you're going to have a guitar.
Richard Yeah. You're not going to be on the main stage for sure. You're going to be, you're going to have a guitar.
Gerrit I put like choir tricks and stuff.
Gerrit I put like choir tricks and stuff.
Richard Yeah. You're going to play guitar. Yeah. You're going to be singing some songs around the campfire, and you may get to a Bible story every now and then. But yeah, President Holland.
Richard Yeah. You're going to play guitar. Yeah. You're going to be singing some songs around the campfire, and you may get to a Bible story every now and then. But yeah, President Holland.
Gerrit What I was going to say is, he doesn't know my name at all. So I don't want to be one of those people when an apostle passes away to be like, to try to act like I had some kind of great personal relationship, right? I don't. I am nothing. No one knows who I am, nor should they. So it's not even like a statement of, why don't they? I'm well aware why they don't. But early on during the Papers project, we got to have a lunch meeting with him. And so it's just me and a few other historians. And at the time Elder Holland, but you know, President Holland, and we're all awestruck because, you know, it's this, this is as Elder Holland, that the person who's been such a big deal to us. So we go in there, the whole point is, we were going to have a discussion about, you know, some difficult topics related to producing The Josas and the Papers.
Gerrit What I was going to say is, he doesn't know my name at all. So I don't want to be one of those people when an apostle passes away to be like, to try to act like I had some kind of great personal relationship, right? I don't. I am nothing. No one knows who I am, nor should they. So it's not even like a statement of, why don't they? I'm well aware why they don't. But early on during the Papers project, we got to have a lunch meeting with him. And so it's just me and a few other historians. And at the time Elder Holland, but you know, President Holland, and we're all awestruck because, you know, it's this, this is as Elder Holland, that the person who's been such a big deal to us. So we go in there, the whole point is, we were going to have a discussion about, you know, some difficult topics related to producing The Josas and the Papers.
Gerrit We all sit down, we have our little box lunches in front of us, and everyone's, not one person touches their lunch. They're all just sitting there. Elder Holland's like, so what, you know, what questions do you have? Everyone's just silent. No one's touching their lunch. He just tears into his box lunch and starts going to town, just starts eating it. You know, you guys aren't gonna eat, I'm hungry. How do I time for this? I've gotta eat. We eventually had a really good discussion. But the thing I remember most was he was one of the people reviewing one of the volumes that I worked on that had a lot of Dr. Philastus Hurlbut in it. And look, to tell the story, you have to talk about the guy a lot and all the things he did to Joseph, threatening to murder him, all the lies that he told, all the court case against him.
Gerrit We all sit down, we have our little box lunches in front of us, and everyone's, not one person touches their lunch. They're all just sitting there. Elder Holland's like, so what, you know, what questions do you have? Everyone's just silent. No one's touching their lunch. He just tears into his box lunch and starts going to town, just starts eating it. You know, you guys aren't gonna eat, I'm hungry. How do I time for this? I've gotta eat. We eventually had a really good discussion. But the thing I remember most was he was one of the people reviewing one of the volumes that I worked on that had a lot of Dr. Philastus Hurlbut in it. And look, to tell the story, you have to talk about the guy a lot and all the things he did to Joseph, threatening to murder him, all the lies that he told, all the court case against him.
Gerrit There's a lot in volume three of the Joseph Smith Papers that is related to Philastus Hurlbut because he was doing a lot to Joseph. And apparently, we found the limit to how much Elder Holland wanted to hear about Philastus Hurlbut because in his review, he wrote back on one of our last cases surrounding him, the last documents. He said, I have had just about enough of this Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. And then he said, you know, this miserable little creature did so much to Joseph Smith. I mean, he obviously was fine with what we'd written. He was just expressing frustration. And I think that's because he had such a deep, powerful testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, that someone who was so deliberately being deceitful, claiming that the Book of Mormon, you know, came from Solomon Spalding's manuscript for crying out loud, it was frustrating to him.
Gerrit There's a lot in volume three of the Joseph Smith Papers that is related to Philastus Hurlbut because he was doing a lot to Joseph. And apparently, we found the limit to how much Elder Holland wanted to hear about Philastus Hurlbut because in his review, he wrote back on one of our last cases surrounding him, the last documents. He said, I have had just about enough of this Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. And then he said, you know, this miserable little creature did so much to Joseph Smith. I mean, he obviously was fine with what we'd written. He was just expressing frustration. And I think that's because he had such a deep, powerful testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, that someone who was so deliberately being deceitful, claiming that the Book of Mormon, you know, came from Solomon Spalding's manuscript for crying out loud, it was frustrating to him.
Gerrit So I loved his talks. I loved him as a leader. It was really sad. I will say one last thing. That he had come and talked to our faculty just not very many months ago. And he hadn't been scheduled to speak. It was an anniversary and he was there. And they asked him if he'd say a few words. And so we did. And here he is, you know, pretty enfeebled. He's, you know, having a harder time. And his voice still sounded better than mine does right now. But he said, if you knew what I know, you would run.
Gerrit So I loved his talks. I loved him as a leader. It was really sad. I will say one last thing. That he had come and talked to our faculty just not very many months ago. And he hadn't been scheduled to speak. It was an anniversary and he was there. And they asked him if he'd say a few words. And so we did. And here he is, you know, pretty enfeebled. He's, you know, having a harder time. And his voice still sounded better than mine does right now. But he said, if you knew what I know, you would run.
Gerrit You would run from house to house, from assignment to assignment, trying to do everything you could to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I'm telling you, when he said that, there was a spirit in that room where everybody knew exactly what he meant when he said it. That as he was approaching the end of his life, if we had the testimony that he had, he wasn't indicting us. I mean, he kept telling us what a great job we were doing and trying to spread the message of the gospel through both teaching and through research. But the point of his message was that if we truly understood the importance of the gospel, we would never be weary in well-doing.
Gerrit You would run from house to house, from assignment to assignment, trying to do everything you could to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I'm telling you, when he said that, there was a spirit in that room where everybody knew exactly what he meant when he said it. That as he was approaching the end of his life, if we had the testimony that he had, he wasn't indicting us. I mean, he kept telling us what a great job we were doing and trying to spread the message of the gospel through both teaching and through research. But the point of his message was that if we truly understood the importance of the gospel, we would never be weary in well-doing.
Gerrit We would just, we would run, as he said. We would run from house to house, from event to event, proclaiming the good news. I thought that was a special thing to hear from him the last time.
Gerrit We would just, we would run, as he said. We would run from house to house, from event to event, proclaiming the good news. I thought that was a special thing to hear from him the last time.
Richard There's a talk that he gave back in April of 2001, four years before President Hinckley's infamous talk on gambling.
Richard There's a talk that he gave back in April of 2001, four years before President Hinckley's infamous talk on gambling.
Gerrit Which we well know.
Gerrit Which we well know.
Richard Which we well know and follow. So, it's funny. It's a funny thing. There are a few things in my life that have had greater impact than this talk, which is kind of a crazy thing. But I remember he was giving a talk, and it was about elder and sister Hess from Ashton, Idaho. And they got called on a mission out to, at the time, it was to Belarus, but it was in the Lithuania Vilnius mission. And they were old potato farmers, and they got called out to Belarus. And the people were not... I think the entire talk was about senior missionaries, by the way. I think that was the call for senior missionaries to go serve, but... So, they go out there, and the Belarusian people are hard people.
Richard Which we well know and follow. So, it's funny. It's a funny thing. There are a few things in my life that have had greater impact than this talk, which is kind of a crazy thing. But I remember he was giving a talk, and it was about elder and sister Hess from Ashton, Idaho. And they got called on a mission out to, at the time, it was to Belarus, but it was in the Lithuania Vilnius mission. And they were old potato farmers, and they got called out to Belarus. And the people were not... I think the entire talk was about senior missionaries, by the way. I think that was the call for senior missionaries to go serve, but... So, they go out there, and the Belarusian people are hard people.
Richard And they have had a hard experience, especially during the time when these people were serving. And rather than going and preaching the gospel, they kind of just rolled up their sleeves and helped show them how to increase potato yields, which they did by 11 times. And when... Right, I know, right. So, first of all, as an Idaho boy, I'm like, hey, that's pretty good.
Richard And they have had a hard experience, especially during the time when these people were serving. And rather than going and preaching the gospel, they kind of just rolled up their sleeves and helped show them how to increase potato yields, which they did by 11 times. And when... Right, I know, right. So, first of all, as an Idaho boy, I'm like, hey, that's pretty good.
Gerrit I remember this talk as well, thinking that's a lot of potato yield.
Gerrit I remember this talk as well, thinking that's a lot of potato yield.
Richard It was incredibly powerful. And that when... Essentially, the idea... First of all, Brother Hess, talking about the miracle of it, and sometimes the Lord just needs an old potato farmer. But that when they were able to go and just to serve the people, that the people put down the defenses and were more willing to listen to the Lord. And it's kind of a silly thing, but one of the main reasons why I went back to get my PhD was because of this talk from 2001, and the desire that I had when I retire.
Richard It was incredibly powerful. And that when... Essentially, the idea... First of all, Brother Hess, talking about the miracle of it, and sometimes the Lord just needs an old potato farmer. But that when they were able to go and just to serve the people, that the people put down the defenses and were more willing to listen to the Lord. And it's kind of a silly thing, but one of the main reasons why I went back to get my PhD was because of this talk from 2001, and the desire that I had when I retire.
Gerrit To become a potato farmer.
Gerrit To become a potato farmer.
Richard Well, so I teach entrepreneurship and sales business development stuff. But to take that lecture that I developed for the University of Utah, entrepreneurship students, and to take it all over the place, in hopes that by teaching people how to better increase revenues to their business all over the world, right? That that will hopefully bring down people's defenses. Those are the kinds of missions that I would love to serve. And whether or not that I could ever even do that is, who knows? But that has been a talk that has been a guiding light for me my entire life. Now, obviously, President Holland was an incredible speaker, an incredible man. Every time that he would speak in general conference, my wife would say, all right, everyone be quiet. We want to listen to this, you know?
Richard Well, so I teach entrepreneurship and sales business development stuff. But to take that lecture that I developed for the University of Utah, entrepreneurship students, and to take it all over the place, in hopes that by teaching people how to better increase revenues to their business all over the world, right? That that will hopefully bring down people's defenses. Those are the kinds of missions that I would love to serve. And whether or not that I could ever even do that is, who knows? But that has been a talk that has been a guiding light for me my entire life. Now, obviously, President Holland was an incredible speaker, an incredible man. Every time that he would speak in general conference, my wife would say, all right, everyone be quiet. We want to listen to this, you know?
Richard And it was always just so great. But honestly, there are a couple of talks. President Faust has one about when he was a kid and pretending to be asleep. I still am like, oh my gosh.
Richard And it was always just so great. But honestly, there are a couple of talks. President Faust has one about when he was a kid and pretending to be asleep. I still am like, oh my gosh.
Gerrit Pretending to be asleep.
Gerrit Pretending to be asleep.
Richard As his grandmother goes and gets the wood. But this talk has been so impactful to me. And President Holland, what an incredible legacy of service. And what incredible advice to you. If you have the right tone, you can say just about anything.
Richard As his grandmother goes and gets the wood. But this talk has been so impactful to me. And President Holland, what an incredible legacy of service. And what incredible advice to you. If you have the right tone, you can say just about anything.
Gerrit Yeah. I remember that advice. And then his testimony of Joseph Smith, I mean, so powerful, they play it at Carthage Jail today.
Gerrit Yeah. I remember that advice. And then his testimony of Joseph Smith, I mean, so powerful, they play it at Carthage Jail today.
Richard With the Book of Mormon, where he's holding it up?
Richard With the Book of Mormon, where he's holding it up?
Gerrit Yeah. That, you know, the proof that they were not deceivers is that they were reading the very book that they would have been lying about when they get murdered.
Gerrit Yeah. That, you know, the proof that they were not deceivers is that they were reading the very book that they would have been lying about when they get murdered.
Richard He would not do that.
Richard He would not do that.
Gerrit Yep. He would not. Yep. Yeah. I miss him. And I know that a lot of our listeners do. So I'm sure it's wonderful that he's reunited with his wife. And hopefully to carry on the legacy. I don't know that I... Britishery doesn't consider me running from house to house. But I'm doing my best.
Gerrit Yep. He would not. Yep. Yeah. I miss him. And I know that a lot of our listeners do. So I'm sure it's wonderful that he's reunited with his wife. And hopefully to carry on the legacy. I don't know that I... Britishery doesn't consider me running from house to house. But I'm doing my best.
Richard Yeah. Well, anyway, thank you for those stories, Gerrit. That was very, very nice. We do have Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. As we are starting in Come Follow Me in the Old Testament, we are several millennia away from your expertise. Yes. But we're inching forward every week, closer and closer from the creation of the world to the 19th century. And we're very excited about it.
Richard Yeah. Well, anyway, thank you for those stories, Gerrit. That was very, very nice. We do have Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. As we are starting in Come Follow Me in the Old Testament, we are several millennia away from your expertise. Yes. But we're inching forward every week, closer and closer from the creation of the world to the 19th century. And we're very excited about it.
Gerrit And I like the fact that we'll just pretend that I somehow have an expertise in something that I don't. That we've already been doing that. And now we get to really demonstrate it.
Gerrit And I like the fact that we'll just pretend that I somehow have an expertise in something that I don't. That we've already been doing that. And now we get to really demonstrate it.
Richard Well, Pastor Derek, I'm excited about it.
Richard Well, Pastor Derek, I'm excited about it.
Gerrit And I do have a doctorate of divinity now.
Gerrit And I do have a doctorate of divinity now.
Richard All right, let me pull up the old email here. This first email comes to us from Kevin. Dear Doctors LeDuc and Dirkmaat, greetings from Washington State. I've been an avid litner for a couple of years and love sharing your podcast with family and friends. I am not dedicated enough to pay for premium content yet, but there is room for growth.
Richard All right, let me pull up the old email here. This first email comes to us from Kevin. Dear Doctors LeDuc and Dirkmaat, greetings from Washington State. I've been an avid litner for a couple of years and love sharing your podcast with family and friends. I am not dedicated enough to pay for premium content yet, but there is room for growth.
Gerrit Man, why are we even reading this?
Gerrit Man, why are we even reading this?
Richard That's a great point. This is a great point. It is funny that as I listen to your podcast, they feel like I'm spending time with old friends. That actually kind of is, that's our hope, right?
Richard That's a great point. This is a great point. It is funny that as I listen to your podcast, they feel like I'm spending time with old friends. That actually kind of is, that's our hope, right?
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Of this whole thing.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Of this whole thing.
Gerrit Although now your old friend has apparently got, you know, some kind of growth in his throat. And that's why I sound like I was just punched right in the throat. That's what it sounds like.
Gerrit Although now your old friend has apparently got, you know, some kind of growth in his throat. And that's why I sound like I was just punched right in the throat. That's what it sounds like.
Richard You never sounded better, Gerrit. The time spent recalling old inside jokes, quoting movies and TV shows makes me feel like we have known each other for years. I have to explain to people when I recommend the podcast, they need to go back and start, go back to the start or they will not get the jokes. My bishop recently asked me who Christy is and what her corner is all about. Well, out of context, that could go very poorly.
Richard You never sounded better, Gerrit. The time spent recalling old inside jokes, quoting movies and TV shows makes me feel like we have known each other for years. I have to explain to people when I recommend the podcast, they need to go back and start, go back to the start or they will not get the jokes. My bishop recently asked me who Christy is and what her corner is all about. Well, out of context, that could go very poorly.
Gerrit That's why you need to pay attention to what the point is.
Gerrit That's why you need to pay attention to what the point is.
Richard Christy's corner in a different context, something completely different. Your show has been informative and engaging. It keeps me awake when I drive, which is amazing because I am a very sleepy driver. I laugh, cry, think, and feel the spirit. So why right now? Well, I am serving in a bishopric right now and I got an e-mail today that was disguised as a church e-mail, but was really a message designed to undermine faith and get me to teach it as a new program. I act, it acts like it's what the church wants new members to know as well as everyone else. I will attach a copy of the e-mail at the end of the message. This will spike the dandometer for sure.
Richard Christy's corner in a different context, something completely different. Your show has been informative and engaging. It keeps me awake when I drive, which is amazing because I am a very sleepy driver. I laugh, cry, think, and feel the spirit. So why right now? Well, I am serving in a bishopric right now and I got an e-mail today that was disguised as a church e-mail, but was really a message designed to undermine faith and get me to teach it as a new program. I act, it acts like it's what the church wants new members to know as well as everyone else. I will attach a copy of the e-mail at the end of the message. This will spike the dandometer for sure.
Gerrit I thought it was dandermeter or dandometer. It goes back.
Gerrit I thought it was dandermeter or dandometer. It goes back.
Richard Well, we lost the trademark on dandermeter. So we had to go with dandometer. Otherwise, we can't capitalize on it.
Richard Well, we lost the trademark on dandermeter. So we had to go with dandometer. Otherwise, we can't capitalize on it.
Gerrit I see. Yeah.
Gerrit I see. Yeah.
Intro Lots of T-shirts.
Intro Lots of T-shirts.
Richard In the end, thank you to the Standard Truth Podcast because I was able to see this for what it was. Most of what this e-mail claims has directly been addressed by you. Whatever has not been, fall into categories of poor sources and arguments that I do not need to spend time refuting. Increasingly, they give some things the brethren have actually spoken about and then shift you to topics that and claims not made by the church. I'm so thankful for your willingness to talk about challenging subjects openly so that I can turn the page on this and not be kept up worrying about the things that conspiring men would have me worry about. Thank you so much. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, I would love to take you to dinner, Kevin. Now that you get a good seafood dinner in Washington, now it depends where he's at. If he's in Tri-Cities, there's many good potato dishes. You get a good Yukon potato, perhaps, a Golden, all kinds of things.
Richard In the end, thank you to the Standard Truth Podcast because I was able to see this for what it was. Most of what this e-mail claims has directly been addressed by you. Whatever has not been, fall into categories of poor sources and arguments that I do not need to spend time refuting. Increasingly, they give some things the brethren have actually spoken about and then shift you to topics that and claims not made by the church. I'm so thankful for your willingness to talk about challenging subjects openly so that I can turn the page on this and not be kept up worrying about the things that conspiring men would have me worry about. Thank you so much. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, I would love to take you to dinner, Kevin. Now that you get a good seafood dinner in Washington, now it depends where he's at. If he's in Tri-Cities, there's many good potato dishes. You get a good Yukon potato, perhaps, a Golden, all kinds of things.
Gerrit I feel like there's been a lot of potato talk on this podcast already.
Gerrit I feel like there's been a lot of potato talk on this podcast already.
Richard Have I met my Kevin of potato?
Richard Have I met my Kevin of potato?
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like this is exactly how your former bishop felt about my mentions of atheists in my sacrament meeting talk.
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like this is exactly how your former bishop felt about my mentions of atheists in my sacrament meeting talk.
Richard Yeah, when you mentioned them all the time. You spoke in our word a couple of times.
Richard Yeah, when you mentioned them all the time. You spoke in our word a couple of times.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Yeah. I think when we had a presiding 70 that you mentioned, that probably was the thing that made him nervous.
Richard Yeah. I think when we had a presiding 70 that you mentioned, that probably was the thing that made him nervous.
Gerrit That was probably the number one thing. Yeah.
Gerrit That was probably the number one thing. Yeah.
Richard Probably one.
Richard Probably one.
Gerrit Well, so a lot of people got this.
Gerrit Well, so a lot of people got this.
Richard Yes.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit A lot of people got this. I didn't, but we had dozens of listeners who not only got it, but then emailed to say, hey, what's up with this? So I think we're going to talk about it. We're not going to go through every point, but I just want to talk about the fact that I love how Kevin brought up that, first of all, we covered a lot of these topics on the show, but hopefully what also is going on is a changing way that you think about things like this that are just presented as truth, right? That we understand that we don't just take them exactly how they appear, and where things come from matters. The email, you know, it has like a weird-like image of Jesus, you know, like it was trying to replicate the church's imagery, and, you know, just church-wide program, informed consent.
Gerrit A lot of people got this. I didn't, but we had dozens of listeners who not only got it, but then emailed to say, hey, what's up with this? So I think we're going to talk about it. We're not going to go through every point, but I just want to talk about the fact that I love how Kevin brought up that, first of all, we covered a lot of these topics on the show, but hopefully what also is going on is a changing way that you think about things like this that are just presented as truth, right? That we understand that we don't just take them exactly how they appear, and where things come from matters. The email, you know, it has like a weird-like image of Jesus, you know, like it was trying to replicate the church's imagery, and, you know, just church-wide program, informed consent.
Gerrit Dear brothers and sisters, today, we have an opportunity of spiritual importance, of spiritual importance and for thoughtful reflection. We've all been invited to participate in a new initiative. Like, so first of all, this email isn't coming from the church, which anyone can tell just by the fact that that's not coming from the church's email address.
Gerrit Dear brothers and sisters, today, we have an opportunity of spiritual importance, of spiritual importance and for thoughtful reflection. We've all been invited to participate in a new initiative. Like, so first of all, this email isn't coming from the church, which anyone can tell just by the fact that that's not coming from the church's email address.
Richard So, but first of all, I would like to say, like, the image of Jesus is like, like you said, it's like an image, it's like the general, you know, logo for the church. But when we were in fourth grade and there were budget cuts on the printer.
Richard So, but first of all, I would like to say, like, the image of Jesus is like, like you said, it's like an image, it's like the general, you know, logo for the church. But when we were in fourth grade and there were budget cuts on the printer.
Gerrit Yeah, and it only had the yellow part.
Gerrit Yeah, and it only had the yellow part.
Richard And it was a copy of the copy of the copy of the copy. They ran out of all of the other colors, and it is super weathered. So, yeah, that's a big old yellow line.
Richard And it was a copy of the copy of the copy of the copy. They ran out of all of the other colors, and it is super weathered. So, yeah, that's a big old yellow line.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, so you get anything in an email that's claiming to be from the church. The first thing you can do is see whether or not the email is from the church. So that's that point one.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, so you get anything in an email that's claiming to be from the church. The first thing you can do is see whether or not the email is from the church. So that's that point one.
Richard These are these are good points. Point one is on track, yeah. Okay, very good.
Richard These are these are good points. Point one is on track, yeah. Okay, very good.
Gerrit Point one is the email from the church. Okay. The moment you realize it's not, you should very easily know that everything else that's in it is a deliberate, manipulative attempt to deceive. Now, why do I say deliberate and manipulative? The fact that it was trying to make itself seem like it was from the church means what? It means its authors were trying to be deceived. And you have to immediately ask yourself, why, if someone's argument is good, would they have to lie to make it?
Gerrit Point one is the email from the church. Okay. The moment you realize it's not, you should very easily know that everything else that's in it is a deliberate, manipulative attempt to deceive. Now, why do I say deliberate and manipulative? The fact that it was trying to make itself seem like it was from the church means what? It means its authors were trying to be deceived. And you have to immediately ask yourself, why, if someone's argument is good, would they have to lie to make it?
Richard It's a good question, but I just want to confirm one thing. You're saying that nine numbers dot mailchimp app.com is not the church's email.
Richard It's a good question, but I just want to confirm one thing. You're saying that nine numbers dot mailchimp app.com is not the church's email.
Gerrit It's not their current email address.
Gerrit It's not their current email address.
Intro Okay, okay.
Intro Okay, okay.
Gerrit Yeah. But, you know, this, even just little things that are just, you know, they're trying to entice people by saying, oh, the Gospel Topics Essays. And then providing links to them to try to essentially reel people in with the fact that, oh, this stuff is from the church. Videos of President Nelson showing us how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with his face in a white stovepipe hat. Look, this is only history nerd stuff speaking. But stovepipe hats hadn't been invented yet, so the hat was not a stovepipe hat. Now, unsurprisingly, the person who drew the image of the logo of the church on their dot matrix printer without ink didn't also know that there's a difference between a stovepipe hat and the common hat, a top hat that's worn.
Gerrit Yeah. But, you know, this, even just little things that are just, you know, they're trying to entice people by saying, oh, the Gospel Topics Essays. And then providing links to them to try to essentially reel people in with the fact that, oh, this stuff is from the church. Videos of President Nelson showing us how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with his face in a white stovepipe hat. Look, this is only history nerd stuff speaking. But stovepipe hats hadn't been invented yet, so the hat was not a stovepipe hat. Now, unsurprisingly, the person who drew the image of the logo of the church on their dot matrix printer without ink didn't also know that there's a difference between a stovepipe hat and the common hat, a top hat that's worn.
Gerrit A top hat and a stovepipe hat aren't the same thing. But hey, who's counting in made up fraudulent email land? It goes to show that we're not gonna go through all of it. But the point is to make it seem like the church is saying these things. And to sow the seeds of doubt, right? For instance, we're about to study the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham has been the subject of deep scholarly study, which has found that it is not what Joseph claimed it to be. The Gospel Topics Essay explains that we have the papyrus that it was translated from. That is false. The Gospel Topics Essay says we don't have most of the papyrus. There's a quick check up for you there. The translation is 100% incorrect. Okay, that is also not in the Gospel Topics Essay.
Gerrit A top hat and a stovepipe hat aren't the same thing. But hey, who's counting in made up fraudulent email land? It goes to show that we're not gonna go through all of it. But the point is to make it seem like the church is saying these things. And to sow the seeds of doubt, right? For instance, we're about to study the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham has been the subject of deep scholarly study, which has found that it is not what Joseph claimed it to be. The Gospel Topics Essay explains that we have the papyrus that it was translated from. That is false. The Gospel Topics Essay says we don't have most of the papyrus. There's a quick check up for you there. The translation is 100% incorrect. Okay, that is also not in the Gospel Topics Essay.
Richard It seems like that would really be a major announcement in the Gospel Topics Essay. We're keeping it in the Pearl of Great Price, but it's all incorrect.
Richard It seems like that would really be a major announcement in the Gospel Topics Essay. We're keeping it in the Pearl of Great Price, but it's all incorrect.
Gerrit Yep, yep, it's things like that all throughout. The Brethren are prayerfully considering decanonizing the Book of Abraham.
Gerrit Yep, yep, it's things like that all throughout. The Brethren are prayerfully considering decanonizing the Book of Abraham.
Richard Well, if it's 100% incorrect, I would think that they would be thinking about that.
Richard Well, if it's 100% incorrect, I would think that they would be thinking about that.
Gerrit I mean, the person who created this has no problem just lying. Just this is the type of evil doing that the people who stole the 116 pages were intending to do. If you are lying to make your point, then you have no moral high ground. You can have a different opinion all you want. You can not believe the church is true all you want. If you are asserting as a fact, things that are not facts, then you are a liar and a reprobate. And welcome to your thousand years in our primitive hell before the telestial resurrection.
Gerrit I mean, the person who created this has no problem just lying. Just this is the type of evil doing that the people who stole the 116 pages were intending to do. If you are lying to make your point, then you have no moral high ground. You can have a different opinion all you want. You can not believe the church is true all you want. If you are asserting as a fact, things that are not facts, then you are a liar and a reprobate. And welcome to your thousand years in our primitive hell before the telestial resurrection.
Gerrit Because this is not, well, I just believe differently than you. I believe differently from you is essentially everyone on earth. No one believes what we believe. That's fine. That's what we sent out missionaries. This is not, I believe differently than you. This is, I am going to dishonestly lie about actual facts in a manipulative way to try to change people's minds through lies. Once you recognize lies like this, you should no longer give any credibility to the document, okay? Once you find one place, well, first of all, you should have no credibility to an email document that claims it's from the church, that's from MailChimp, okay?
Gerrit Because this is not, well, I just believe differently than you. I believe differently from you is essentially everyone on earth. No one believes what we believe. That's fine. That's what we sent out missionaries. This is not, I believe differently than you. This is, I am going to dishonestly lie about actual facts in a manipulative way to try to change people's minds through lies. Once you recognize lies like this, you should no longer give any credibility to the document, okay? Once you find one place, well, first of all, you should have no credibility to an email document that claims it's from the church, that's from MailChimp, okay?
Gerrit Especially, no credibility.
Gerrit Especially, no credibility.
Richard Especially if they don't use the color. There's no magenta.
Richard Especially if they don't use the color. There's no magenta.
Gerrit Yeah, well, it was out. Magenta was out. So, if already you should be suspect, but let's say you didn't get it like that in an email. Let's say it's something that someone showed you from someone else. When you find one deliberately incorrect or misleading thing, why would you continue to engage in that source? You know, I had someone message me. I get lots of messages. I had someone message me over the weekend because they'd watched one of these polygamy denial YouTube videos, and they were really troubled by it. And in, you know, responding to them, one of the things I pointed out was multiple places where the person who created the video is deliberately deceiving, where they know that the argument they're making sounds a certain way but they're not telling people about other sources that exist because it would hurt their argument.
Gerrit Yeah, well, it was out. Magenta was out. So, if already you should be suspect, but let's say you didn't get it like that in an email. Let's say it's something that someone showed you from someone else. When you find one deliberately incorrect or misleading thing, why would you continue to engage in that source? You know, I had someone message me. I get lots of messages. I had someone message me over the weekend because they'd watched one of these polygamy denial YouTube videos, and they were really troubled by it. And in, you know, responding to them, one of the things I pointed out was multiple places where the person who created the video is deliberately deceiving, where they know that the argument they're making sounds a certain way but they're not telling people about other sources that exist because it would hurt their argument.
Gerrit When people show that they're willing to be deceptive to make an argument, run. Don't continue investigating with them. The end of the discussion comes when you recognize someone is willing to lie to make their point. Because once you know they're willing to lie about one thing, what does it then tell you? For all you know, the other things that you don't know all the background on, they're willing to lie about that. And so, yeah, this did get my dander meter up. Obviously, I'd spend a lot of time on plural marriage and stuff like that. This is, you know, these arguments and these statements over the top, attempting and pretending to be something coming from the church is just, you know, the lowest level of anti-Mormon garbage, not even dainting it with the 360 off a half-pipe that we would normally give it, because it's deliberately designed to deceive, and that person no longer deserves respect, because they're engaging in a lie.
Gerrit When people show that they're willing to be deceptive to make an argument, run. Don't continue investigating with them. The end of the discussion comes when you recognize someone is willing to lie to make their point. Because once you know they're willing to lie about one thing, what does it then tell you? For all you know, the other things that you don't know all the background on, they're willing to lie about that. And so, yeah, this did get my dander meter up. Obviously, I'd spend a lot of time on plural marriage and stuff like that. This is, you know, these arguments and these statements over the top, attempting and pretending to be something coming from the church is just, you know, the lowest level of anti-Mormon garbage, not even dainting it with the 360 off a half-pipe that we would normally give it, because it's deliberately designed to deceive, and that person no longer deserves respect, because they're engaging in a lie.
Gerrit And they might pat themselves on the back and say, well, yeah, but it's a lie for a good reason, because that way it makes it so that you listen to the real gospel. Well, if you have an argument that is a good one, you don't need to lie to make it. So why are you lying to make it? If you know that there are sources, that refute a position you're taking, and you deliberately don't tell anyone about them, then you must not feel very confident in the position that you're taking. But you could probably know that from where the email came from. It's very lengthy. The other thing, and part of this deception, Church History Society is who sends it. One East South Temple, which is like the Joseph Smith Memorial Building.
Gerrit And they might pat themselves on the back and say, well, yeah, but it's a lie for a good reason, because that way it makes it so that you listen to the real gospel. Well, if you have an argument that is a good one, you don't need to lie to make it. So why are you lying to make it? If you know that there are sources, that refute a position you're taking, and you deliberately don't tell anyone about them, then you must not feel very confident in the position that you're taking. But you could probably know that from where the email came from. It's very lengthy. The other thing, and part of this deception, Church History Society is who sends it. One East South Temple, which is like the Joseph Smith Memorial Building.
Richard Oh, they had better servers there.
Richard Oh, they had better servers there.
Gerrit Yeah, well, I checked to see, you know, Church History Society isn't there, so they even lied about that. They also said you're receiving this email because you opted in VR website, which of course nobody had. So, every part of this was a deliberate dishonesty. So, yeah, unfortunately, a lot of people got that. But don't be taken in by stuff like this. If someone is trying to share stuff with you, whether it's about polygamy or whether it's about the Book of Abraham, and it's not coming from the church, then that is your wake-up call. If part of their narrative is, here's where the current prophet is wrong, that's when it's time to end the conversation.
Gerrit Yeah, well, I checked to see, you know, Church History Society isn't there, so they even lied about that. They also said you're receiving this email because you opted in VR website, which of course nobody had. So, every part of this was a deliberate dishonesty. So, yeah, unfortunately, a lot of people got that. But don't be taken in by stuff like this. If someone is trying to share stuff with you, whether it's about polygamy or whether it's about the Book of Abraham, and it's not coming from the church, then that is your wake-up call. If part of their narrative is, here's where the current prophet is wrong, that's when it's time to end the conversation.
Gerrit Because that person, whatever they claim, they can claim all they want, oh, I'm a really good member. I'm a devoted member. I just believe the prophet's wrong. Okay, well, I hate to break it to you. You're not a devoted member. You stopped being a devoted member the moment you decided the prophet was wrong. That's when you stopped being a devoted member. And that's what we all make a baptismal covenant to do, to follow the current prophet. So, if we aren't going to do it, then we need to at least stop deceiving ourselves into thinking that we don't have to follow the current prophet for some reason. Well, yeah, but I really have a hard time with plural marriage. Yeah, you and everyone on earth, you aren't the only one who has a hard time with plural marriage. Every single member of the church living in America has some level of discomfort with the fact that it was practiced.
Gerrit Because that person, whatever they claim, they can claim all they want, oh, I'm a really good member. I'm a devoted member. I just believe the prophet's wrong. Okay, well, I hate to break it to you. You're not a devoted member. You stopped being a devoted member the moment you decided the prophet was wrong. That's when you stopped being a devoted member. And that's what we all make a baptismal covenant to do, to follow the current prophet. So, if we aren't going to do it, then we need to at least stop deceiving ourselves into thinking that we don't have to follow the current prophet for some reason. Well, yeah, but I really have a hard time with plural marriage. Yeah, you and everyone on earth, you aren't the only one who has a hard time with plural marriage. Every single member of the church living in America has some level of discomfort with the fact that it was practiced.
Gerrit But we follow what the current prophet teaches, who is first of all teaching you not to practice plural marriage. So if someone's telling you to, they're wrong. And second, only recently released a statement saying, Joseph Smith taught practice plural marriage. And what's frustrating is that when people imbibe some of these things, they start to spin out, because then they stop relying on the witness of the spirit that they've had for 30, 40, 50, 60 years of their life. So these things are super frustrating to me.
Gerrit But we follow what the current prophet teaches, who is first of all teaching you not to practice plural marriage. So if someone's telling you to, they're wrong. And second, only recently released a statement saying, Joseph Smith taught practice plural marriage. And what's frustrating is that when people imbibe some of these things, they start to spin out, because then they stop relying on the witness of the spirit that they've had for 30, 40, 50, 60 years of their life. So these things are super frustrating to me.
Richard Well, so I mean, I make fun of aspects of it, but when, I mean, these things are only going to become more difficult to be able to distinguish, right, with AI and other things. I mean, when President Nelson talks about the need of having the Holy Ghost, because in coming days, we're going to need it more than ever. Like, we mock this, you know, not having the magenta ink and whatever, but there are going to be more and more of these things that are going to be further or harder and harder to distinguish the difference.
Richard Well, so I mean, I make fun of aspects of it, but when, I mean, these things are only going to become more difficult to be able to distinguish, right, with AI and other things. I mean, when President Nelson talks about the need of having the Holy Ghost, because in coming days, we're going to need it more than ever. Like, we mock this, you know, not having the magenta ink and whatever, but there are going to be more and more of these things that are going to be further or harder and harder to distinguish the difference.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know what? I would say to people to be not just wary, but build a brick wall like between you and anyone who is arguing against the current prophet and the current church's teachings. If you want to keep your testimony, you can't indulge in it. You can't dabble with it and think that it's not going to materially damage your spirit. You need to prioritize your testimony. Well, one way you don't prioritize it is by watching, reading or listening to things that are attacking the church.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know what? I would say to people to be not just wary, but build a brick wall like between you and anyone who is arguing against the current prophet and the current church's teachings. If you want to keep your testimony, you can't indulge in it. You can't dabble with it and think that it's not going to materially damage your spirit. You need to prioritize your testimony. Well, one way you don't prioritize it is by watching, reading or listening to things that are attacking the church.
Gerrit And the worst part about all of these things, they claim to be using academic sources when they are making arguments that would not be accepted by academics, even outside of the church for some of the arguments. Obviously, plural marriage is going to be a difficult topic, and that's why there's a bunch of this in that letter. But the plea is, guard your testimony, guard it. Satan is going to try to destroy it. And what many early members of the church learned, you are going to learn. And that is often the person who is the most at risk of damaging your testimony, is someone that you personally think is a really great person.
Gerrit And the worst part about all of these things, they claim to be using academic sources when they are making arguments that would not be accepted by academics, even outside of the church for some of the arguments. Obviously, plural marriage is going to be a difficult topic, and that's why there's a bunch of this in that letter. But the plea is, guard your testimony, guard it. Satan is going to try to destroy it. And what many early members of the church learned, you are going to learn. And that is often the person who is the most at risk of damaging your testimony, is someone that you personally think is a really great person.
Gerrit Oh, you don't understand. Bill's like an amazing guy. He totally came over and helped me when my house flooded. He just thinks that President Nelson became a false prophet when he told people get the COVID vaccination. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, like, it of course is going to come in the guise of someone who claims that they have a testimony. But you don't get to claim that you have a testimony of the restoration at the same time you are talking about how the current church is in error. I will repeat it in case anyone is wondering. If the church needs to change something, the angel isn't coming to you. So if you think it did, it didn't. If you think that you are the conduit whereby God is going to correct the problems in the church, you are wrong and you've been deceived.
Gerrit Oh, you don't understand. Bill's like an amazing guy. He totally came over and helped me when my house flooded. He just thinks that President Nelson became a false prophet when he told people get the COVID vaccination. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, like, it of course is going to come in the guise of someone who claims that they have a testimony. But you don't get to claim that you have a testimony of the restoration at the same time you are talking about how the current church is in error. I will repeat it in case anyone is wondering. If the church needs to change something, the angel isn't coming to you. So if you think it did, it didn't. If you think that you are the conduit whereby God is going to correct the problems in the church, you are wrong and you've been deceived.
Gerrit And I have no compunctions about saying that. God has established a way that knowledge is given. And the way that it's given is not from a YouTube video. It's not from a fraudulent letter. It is from the prophet of God. So don't allow yourself to be deceived. Don't allow yourself to be deceived. Whether it's AI voice masquerading as President Oaks, or whether it's an email or a YouTube and people are saying all the right words. I love the church so much. It just pains me so much to find out that the church was wrong about this. No, that's how you know you're being deceived. Don't allow yourself to be deceived. We have another email that has some probably unintentional deception in it, but I thought I'd talk about.
Gerrit And I have no compunctions about saying that. God has established a way that knowledge is given. And the way that it's given is not from a YouTube video. It's not from a fraudulent letter. It is from the prophet of God. So don't allow yourself to be deceived. Don't allow yourself to be deceived. Whether it's AI voice masquerading as President Oaks, or whether it's an email or a YouTube and people are saying all the right words. I love the church so much. It just pains me so much to find out that the church was wrong about this. No, that's how you know you're being deceived. Don't allow yourself to be deceived. We have another email that has some probably unintentional deception in it, but I thought I'd talk about.
Richard Well, so just really quick, Gerrit, because we won't have time to get to it, but we do need to talk about it on the next episode. Sheila and her YooHoo experiments in Fairbanks, Alaska.
Richard Well, so just really quick, Gerrit, because we won't have time to get to it, but we do need to talk about it on the next episode. Sheila and her YooHoo experiments in Fairbanks, Alaska.
Gerrit Oh my goodness. Next week, we should talk about it just right now.
Gerrit Oh my goodness. Next week, we should talk about it just right now.
Intro Okay.
Intro Okay.
Richard I mean, let me pull it up here.
Richard I mean, let me pull it up here.
Gerrit It's the greatest thing that ever happened.
Gerrit It's the greatest thing that ever happened.
Richard It really is.
Richard It really is.
Gerrit As we talked about YooHoo and whether or not it could actually become cold enough.
Gerrit As we talked about YooHoo and whether or not it could actually become cold enough.
Richard I have her follow-up email. So she lives in Honolulu, but was holidaying in Fairbanks. As people are want to do. Let me pull up her initial email here. It was, I think we'll have links in the thing to the pictures. She said they were so great. Anyway, she did a pretty exhaustive research on where she essentially took... You want me to read the holy note?
Richard I have her follow-up email. So she lives in Honolulu, but was holidaying in Fairbanks. As people are want to do. Let me pull up her initial email here. It was, I think we'll have links in the thing to the pictures. She said they were so great. Anyway, she did a pretty exhaustive research on where she essentially took... You want me to read the holy note?
Gerrit Sure.
Gerrit Sure.
Richard Okay, all right, let me do that. Let me pull it here. Let me just put it in size 48 font, because I cannot see. And in case people were wondering if my vision was getting better, my understanding is with age, it just does. But as a long time litner, I've heard a great deal of chatter over the years about YooHoo drinks, how terrible they taste, how they won't cool. By the way, you do have experiment. I can't remember if we mentioned it here. I think we did on the podcast where there was a grainy video of some Amazon driver taking a YooHoo from my porch. Taking a YooHoo from your porch that you left there. With a trip to Alaska for Christmas and anticipated cold weather, I decided to do some YooHoo experimentation. First, after arriving in Fairbanks, I bought an eight pack of YooHoo cartons at the grocery store. Since I couldn't find individual bottles, even at a nearby convenience store here in Fairbanks, didn't deign to sell the drink in single cartons or bottles.
Richard Okay, all right, let me do that. Let me pull it here. Let me just put it in size 48 font, because I cannot see. And in case people were wondering if my vision was getting better, my understanding is with age, it just does. But as a long time litner, I've heard a great deal of chatter over the years about YooHoo drinks, how terrible they taste, how they won't cool. By the way, you do have experiment. I can't remember if we mentioned it here. I think we did on the podcast where there was a grainy video of some Amazon driver taking a YooHoo from my porch. Taking a YooHoo from your porch that you left there. With a trip to Alaska for Christmas and anticipated cold weather, I decided to do some YooHoo experimentation. First, after arriving in Fairbanks, I bought an eight pack of YooHoo cartons at the grocery store. Since I couldn't find individual bottles, even at a nearby convenience store here in Fairbanks, didn't deign to sell the drink in single cartons or bottles.
Richard And I did ask. Apparently, the consumer demand for YooHoo, which is one of the best search engines, by the way. If you like their watery milk, if you like their watery milk, you're going to love their search engine. At my daughter's home, I opened one of the cartons, took a sip and wow, you're right. It was terrible. Who drinks this?
Richard And I did ask. Apparently, the consumer demand for YooHoo, which is one of the best search engines, by the way. If you like their watery milk, if you like their watery milk, you're going to love their search engine. At my daughter's home, I opened one of the cartons, took a sip and wow, you're right. It was terrible. Who drinks this?
Gerrit This coming from someone in Hawaii for whom Spam and Eggs is amazing.
Gerrit This coming from someone in Hawaii for whom Spam and Eggs is amazing.
Richard Yeah, it's a staple there.
Richard Yeah, it's a staple there.
Gerrit I actually was Spamming it, by the way.
Gerrit I actually was Spamming it, by the way.
Richard I was expecting something like a B-grade Nestle's chocolate milk, but no. It was more like an F-grade chocolate water. That's what I'm saying. It's not good. Although if they choose to sponsor the program, I will change the things that I am saying, obviously.
Richard I was expecting something like a B-grade Nestle's chocolate milk, but no. It was more like an F-grade chocolate water. That's what I'm saying. It's not good. Although if they choose to sponsor the program, I will change the things that I am saying, obviously.
Gerrit We'll change our logo. It'll just be Joseph drinking a YooHoo. It'll be a Hyrum handing him another six pack.
Gerrit We'll change our logo. It'll just be Joseph drinking a YooHoo. It'll be a Hyrum handing him another six pack.
Richard I'm sorry.
Richard I'm sorry.
Gerrit Oh my God. We can be bought. Just no one's buying. Promise no one's buying.
Gerrit Oh my God. We can be bought. Just no one's buying. Promise no one's buying.
Intro What an enormous sellout.
Intro What an enormous sellout.
Richard That would, oh my gosh, that's so... To test Gerrit's assertion that YooHoo won't chill, we left a carton outside the house, outdoor temperature about zero degrees Fahrenheit. After an hour, we checked. The YooHoo was still liquid.
Richard That would, oh my gosh, that's so... To test Gerrit's assertion that YooHoo won't chill, we left a carton outside the house, outdoor temperature about zero degrees Fahrenheit. After an hour, we checked. The YooHoo was still liquid.
Gerrit So zero degrees at zero degrees.
Gerrit So zero degrees at zero degrees.
Richard Yes. Okay. So look, we have, we have Litners in Australia, England, Canada, all over the world. Zero degrees. That's Fahrenheit.
Richard Yes. Okay. So look, we have, we have Litners in Australia, England, Canada, all over the world. Zero degrees. That's Fahrenheit.
Gerrit Not Celsius. No, no.
Gerrit Not Celsius. No, no.
Richard Yeah. Which Celsius, it's like negative 33. I don't know. I don't know the conversion. Are you looking that up, Gerrit? You're getting the crack research stuff on it.
Richard Yeah. Which Celsius, it's like negative 33. I don't know. I don't know the conversion. Are you looking that up, Gerrit? You're getting the crack research stuff on it.
Gerrit Crack research stuff on it.
Gerrit Crack research stuff on it.
Richard After another hour, as the outdoor temperature dropped, the YooHoo continued in its liquid form.
Richard After another hour, as the outdoor temperature dropped, the YooHoo continued in its liquid form.
Gerrit It's negative 17.7 degrees Celsius.
Gerrit It's negative 17.7 degrees Celsius.
Richard Finally, after 24 hours in temperatures of negative 20 Fahrenheit, YooHoo froze into an ugly brown block. Photo attached.
Richard Finally, after 24 hours in temperatures of negative 20 Fahrenheit, YooHoo froze into an ugly brown block. Photo attached.
Gerrit Now, this to me says, if you're driving somewhere and you run out of antifreeze in your radiator, you could theoretically to get to the next town or YooHoo in it as a stopgap.
Gerrit Now, this to me says, if you're driving somewhere and you run out of antifreeze in your radiator, you could theoretically to get to the next town or YooHoo in it as a stopgap.
Richard So now, Gerrit and I are not auto mechanics, but our understanding is that that would work and that would be totally fine.
Richard So now, Gerrit and I are not auto mechanics, but our understanding is that that would work and that would be totally fine.
Gerrit I mean, your car would be destroyed, but it would have a great chocolate scent.
Gerrit I mean, your car would be destroyed, but it would have a great chocolate scent.
Richard In case you're wondering, we didn't chop it up and eat frozen block YooHoo. Why would you do that? You wouldn't serve that to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Also, because it wouldn't be able to freeze, that it wouldn't have the ability in Cuba. We also boiled some YooHoo and threw it in the air at negative 10 degrees Fahrenheit temperatures. Steam shot into the air, but the YooHoo fell to the ground unharmed and unfrozen. She sent us a video of water that came down and then YooHoo that came down.
Richard In case you're wondering, we didn't chop it up and eat frozen block YooHoo. Why would you do that? You wouldn't serve that to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Also, because it wouldn't be able to freeze, that it wouldn't have the ability in Cuba. We also boiled some YooHoo and threw it in the air at negative 10 degrees Fahrenheit temperatures. Steam shot into the air, but the YooHoo fell to the ground unharmed and unfrozen. She sent us a video of water that came down and then YooHoo that came down.
Gerrit A lot of people do that where it's so cold, they take water and they throw it up in the air and it instantly turns to just ice.
Gerrit A lot of people do that where it's so cold, they take water and they throw it up in the air and it instantly turns to just ice.
Richard But the YooHoo fell to the ground unharmed and unfrozen. We did the same thing with boiling water. It seemed to be closer to freezing as it fell, video attached. So my YooHoo experiment, experiments have only, and thank you, Sheila, for your contributions to science.
Richard But the YooHoo fell to the ground unharmed and unfrozen. We did the same thing with boiling water. It seemed to be closer to freezing as it fell, video attached. So my YooHoo experiment, experiments have only, and thank you, Sheila, for your contributions to science.
Gerrit Tireless. If she's not nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Prize in science. I mean.
Gerrit Tireless. If she's not nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Prize in science. I mean.
Richard Oh, I think a Peace Prize.
Richard Oh, I think a Peace Prize.
Gerrit If we could send this to, I mean.
Gerrit If we could send this to, I mean.
Richard Physics or which one of the.
Richard Physics or which one of the.
Gerrit I mean, it could be chemistry. It could be physics.
Gerrit I mean, it could be chemistry. It could be physics.
Richard So many.
Gerrit I mean, it could be for writing at this point.
Richard So many.
Gerrit I mean, it could be for writing at this point.
Richard She's a Nobel laureate. Yes, that's right. So my YooHoo experiments have only served to confirm every claim you've made about the abominable drinks, thus adding to your credibility as spouters of trivia and knowledgeable podcasters. Keep up the good work and keep inspiring and enlightening us. Look forward to 2026. No animals were harmed during the YooHoo experiments, though my daughter's Alaskan husky seemed very interested. So that's from Sheila. And Gerrit and I laughed about that.
Richard She's a Nobel laureate. Yes, that's right. So my YooHoo experiments have only served to confirm every claim you've made about the abominable drinks, thus adding to your credibility as spouters of trivia and knowledgeable podcasters. Keep up the good work and keep inspiring and enlightening us. Look forward to 2026. No animals were harmed during the YooHoo experiments, though my daughter's Alaskan husky seemed very interested. So that's from Sheila. And Gerrit and I laughed about that.
Gerrit It was amazing.
Richard We watched the videos. It was very, very, very, very funny. Gerrit was on his flight to Israel when we got the email. And so we were going back and forth on the on the flight. Anyway, Sheila, that was very impressive.
Gerrit It was amazing.
Richard We watched the videos. It was very, very, very, very funny. Gerrit was on his flight to Israel when we got the email. And so we were going back and forth on the on the flight. Anyway, Sheila, that was very impressive.
Gerrit I'm sure she's excited to get back to Hawaii after any time in Fairbanks, Alaska.
Gerrit I'm sure she's excited to get back to Hawaii after any time in Fairbanks, Alaska.
Richard Yes. Is there time for that email now or no? Do we need to push it? We have we're at, I don't know, 50 minutes, something.
Richard Yes. Is there time for that email now or no? Do we need to push it? We have we're at, I don't know, 50 minutes, something.
Gerrit I'm sure let's do it.
Gerrit I'm sure let's do it.
Richard OK. Comes to us from a missionary. Elder something.
Richard OK. Comes to us from a missionary. Elder something.
Gerrit OK. Well, very good.
Gerrit OK. Well, very good.
Richard Do you have the email?
Richard Do you have the email?
Gerrit I mean, I do. I don't know if you wanted to announce who it was or read part of it, but...
Gerrit I mean, I do. I don't know if you wanted to announce who it was or read part of it, but...
Richard I didn't have it pulled up. And so I was just... I see.
Richard I didn't have it pulled up. And so I was just... I see.
Gerrit You were stalling.
Gerrit You were stalling.
Richard I didn't think it was obvious. I thought I played it off perfectly.
Richard I didn't think it was obvious. I thought I played it off perfectly.
Gerrit Yes. It was as if you were a YooHoo trying to freeze in sub-zero temperatures. Do you really think it was out there for 24 hours, by the way?
Gerrit Yes. It was as if you were a YooHoo trying to freeze in sub-zero temperatures. Do you really think it was out there for 24 hours, by the way?
Richard First of all, Sheila has so much credibility with me that I believe every word she says. And if she were to send me an e-mail...
Richard First of all, Sheila has so much credibility with me that I believe every word she says. And if she were to send me an e-mail...
Gerrit If she started a religion, okay. Well, we have an elder who wrote to us. And, you know, maybe I won't use his name, just because he's talking about someone that he knows that's asking questions, and so I'll protect the anonymity. But they are from Missouri, and they wanted to let us know that, in fact, they do pronounce it with the uh at the end.
Gerrit If she started a religion, okay. Well, we have an elder who wrote to us. And, you know, maybe I won't use his name, just because he's talking about someone that he knows that's asking questions, and so I'll protect the anonymity. But they are from Missouri, and they wanted to let us know that, in fact, they do pronounce it with the uh at the end.
Richard Missouri.
Richard Missouri.
Gerrit Yeah, he pronounces his home state, Missouri. Oh, very good. He also made some comments about how, well, you know, if you think Missouri is a horrible place, I went to Utah once, and it's not winning any awards. You know, he does say he loves Missouri, and he's like, whenever he's got to Utah, it was not very appealing, except the mountains. Although, almost nobody wanted to kill me there.
Gerrit Yeah, he pronounces his home state, Missouri. Oh, very good. He also made some comments about how, well, you know, if you think Missouri is a horrible place, I went to Utah once, and it's not winning any awards. You know, he does say he loves Missouri, and he's like, whenever he's got to Utah, it was not very appealing, except the mountains. Although, almost nobody wanted to kill me there.
Richard You know what's funny? It's funny. I had a guy in my MTC district from Missouri, and he also was quite fond of Missouri.
Richard You know what's funny? It's funny. I had a guy in my MTC district from Missouri, and he also was quite fond of Missouri.
Gerrit Yeah. I think most people are quite proud of their state.
Gerrit Yeah. I think most people are quite proud of their state.
Richard He talked, sure, but he talked about Zion all the time, and just kept reminding people that they'd be coming to visit him when eventually that was happening.
Richard He talked, sure, but he talked about Zion all the time, and just kept reminding people that they'd be coming to visit him when eventually that was happening.
Gerrit I might be serving here on my mission in Utah, but you're coming back to me eventually. He brought up the fact that living where he does in Missouri, that there are obviously lots of people that have different views there from different branches of restoration branches that have broken off from the church. There's lots of different groups, most notably the Community of Christ, but there have been a dozen plus break offs from that group as well. There's a lot of people in Missouri who believe in the Book of Mormon, but aren't members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Right. And so he asked this question because he has a friend. And then he, you know, this is how you know he's an honest elder. He admits, they happen to be a girl, and it's a girl I like very much.
Gerrit I might be serving here on my mission in Utah, but you're coming back to me eventually. He brought up the fact that living where he does in Missouri, that there are obviously lots of people that have different views there from different branches of restoration branches that have broken off from the church. There's lots of different groups, most notably the Community of Christ, but there have been a dozen plus break offs from that group as well. There's a lot of people in Missouri who believe in the Book of Mormon, but aren't members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Right. And so he asked this question because he has a friend. And then he, you know, this is how you know he's an honest elder. He admits, they happen to be a girl, and it's a girl I like very much.
Gerrit There you go. Okay. All right, Elder, now I know where this is really coming from. And we think you should contact us with all of your dating questions. Since we are not qualified in any way to handle them. Clearly a friend of his that he knows from back home. And this person has been arguing to him that Brigham Young was not the rightful heir of Joseph Smith. And this was the quote their friend sent them. And he said, look, I don't have the ability to look any of this up because I'm not, I'm a missionary. Basically, there were like three or four different types and places where Joseph Smith did the laying on of hands to bless and designate his son, that'd be Joseph Smith III, as his successor, or said that his son would succeed him.
Gerrit There you go. Okay. All right, Elder, now I know where this is really coming from. And we think you should contact us with all of your dating questions. Since we are not qualified in any way to handle them. Clearly a friend of his that he knows from back home. And this person has been arguing to him that Brigham Young was not the rightful heir of Joseph Smith. And this was the quote their friend sent them. And he said, look, I don't have the ability to look any of this up because I'm not, I'm a missionary. Basically, there were like three or four different types and places where Joseph Smith did the laying on of hands to bless and designate his son, that'd be Joseph Smith III, as his successor, or said that his son would succeed him.
Gerrit One place I know of is Liberty Jail, and another was the temple lot in Nauvoo, with 3,000 witnesses, where he answered a question about if he were to die, who would succeed him. And he pointed to his son and said that he would. This is a citation from Thomas Bullock's journal, A Blessing by Joseph Smith Jr. to the Young Joseph on 17 January 1844, To be my successor to the presidency of the high priesthood, a seer and revelator and prophet unto the church, which appointment belongeth to him by blessing and also by right. This is from a paper analyzing it. So, clearly his friend is presenting this argument that Joseph Smith III was supposed to be the follower of the church. Obviously, the friend is not some kind of PhD historian and they're just having this discussion.
Gerrit One place I know of is Liberty Jail, and another was the temple lot in Nauvoo, with 3,000 witnesses, where he answered a question about if he were to die, who would succeed him. And he pointed to his son and said that he would. This is a citation from Thomas Bullock's journal, A Blessing by Joseph Smith Jr. to the Young Joseph on 17 January 1844, To be my successor to the presidency of the high priesthood, a seer and revelator and prophet unto the church, which appointment belongeth to him by blessing and also by right. This is from a paper analyzing it. So, clearly his friend is presenting this argument that Joseph Smith III was supposed to be the follower of the church. Obviously, the friend is not some kind of PhD historian and they're just having this discussion.
Gerrit But first and foremost, one of the things that jumps out is the 17 January 1844. That's because this document is supposedly from Thomas Bullock's journal, which it was never from his journal. It was purported to be from his papers, but in his handwriting, is actually one of the Mark Hoffman forgeries. And it's been known as a forgery for 24 years at this point, 25 years. So I don't know if the friend was reading a really, really, really old article where that was discussed, or they were using ChatGPT and ChatGPT, because it can't tell the difference between a source that's real and one that's fake. Pull that up as proof that Joseph had blessed his son to be the successor. But that one, first of all, is 100% fraudulent.
Gerrit But first and foremost, one of the things that jumps out is the 17 January 1844. That's because this document is supposedly from Thomas Bullock's journal, which it was never from his journal. It was purported to be from his papers, but in his handwriting, is actually one of the Mark Hoffman forgeries. And it's been known as a forgery for 24 years at this point, 25 years. So I don't know if the friend was reading a really, really, really old article where that was discussed, or they were using ChatGPT and ChatGPT, because it can't tell the difference between a source that's real and one that's fake. Pull that up as proof that Joseph had blessed his son to be the successor. But that one, first of all, is 100% fraudulent.
Gerrit It is the listed known Hoffman forgeries, even though it might say what people want to hear. Another in this line of questioning, right? Another was the Temple Lot in Nauvoo with 3,000 witnesses. I think where this comes from is actually not the Temple Lot in Nauvoo. This is from the Temple Lot trial, which also has a lot to do with plural marriage. I'm so sorry for everybody, you know, I ended up talking about it again, but... What happened is, the reorganized church and another church were disputing who had rightful ownership of the original Temple Lot in Jackson County, Missouri.
Gerrit It is the listed known Hoffman forgeries, even though it might say what people want to hear. Another in this line of questioning, right? Another was the Temple Lot in Nauvoo with 3,000 witnesses. I think where this comes from is actually not the Temple Lot in Nauvoo. This is from the Temple Lot trial, which also has a lot to do with plural marriage. I'm so sorry for everybody, you know, I ended up talking about it again, but... What happened is, the reorganized church and another church were disputing who had rightful ownership of the original Temple Lot in Jackson County, Missouri.
Gerrit And it went to multiple court cases. And the Hedrickite Church that possessed it was refuting claims by the reorganized church that the reorganized church rightfully should have owned it as the rightful successor from Joseph Smith. And so that's why this all came up. Well, there is someone in that trial who does make the claim that Joseph Smith said that his son would be the successor were anything to happen to him. The problem is that person in that trial also apparently is saying things that we know at one point they refuted.
Gerrit And it went to multiple court cases. And the Hedrickite Church that possessed it was refuting claims by the reorganized church that the reorganized church rightfully should have owned it as the rightful successor from Joseph Smith. And so that's why this all came up. Well, there is someone in that trial who does make the claim that Joseph Smith said that his son would be the successor were anything to happen to him. The problem is that person in that trial also apparently is saying things that we know at one point they refuted.
Gerrit So this person, their name's James Whitehead. He says, I recollect a meeting was held in winter of 1843. Prior to Joseph Smith's death, where the appointment was made by him, Joseph Smith of his successor. His son Joseph was selected as his successor. Joseph did the talking. So I think that's what the friend means when they say at the Nauvoo Temple Lot. I think what they mean is it's from the Temple Lot case, which is an 1892 case, a court case in which this testimony is given. The problem is, part of this testimony also includes things like, the doctrine of polygamy was never taught by the elders or high priests, or by any other person or persons of authority in that church. The doctrine of polygamy has never been, to my knowledge, taught or practiced by any person in the organized church, because we did not believe in it.
Gerrit So this person, their name's James Whitehead. He says, I recollect a meeting was held in winter of 1843. Prior to Joseph Smith's death, where the appointment was made by him, Joseph Smith of his successor. His son Joseph was selected as his successor. Joseph did the talking. So I think that's what the friend means when they say at the Nauvoo Temple Lot. I think what they mean is it's from the Temple Lot case, which is an 1892 case, a court case in which this testimony is given. The problem is, part of this testimony also includes things like, the doctrine of polygamy was never taught by the elders or high priests, or by any other person or persons of authority in that church. The doctrine of polygamy has never been, to my knowledge, taught or practiced by any person in the organized church, because we did not believe in it.
Gerrit And if anybody has taught or practiced it, they've been cut off mighty quick. So, he makes a claim that it was never, ever, ever taught. Well, the reason why that's a dubious claim is the same person, James Whitehead, actually is recorded by leaders of the reorganized church, stating that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. So, I mean, that is kind of a problem, right? Because, you know, he says that it never happened, but he also is a person who changes that opinion, right? So he gives different accounts when it comes to plural marriage.
Gerrit And if anybody has taught or practiced it, they've been cut off mighty quick. So, he makes a claim that it was never, ever, ever taught. Well, the reason why that's a dubious claim is the same person, James Whitehead, actually is recorded by leaders of the reorganized church, stating that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. So, I mean, that is kind of a problem, right? Because, you know, he says that it never happened, but he also is a person who changes that opinion, right? So he gives different accounts when it comes to plural marriage.
Gerrit So, look, is it a source? Yes. Is it a very difficult source? Yeah, because, you know, in 1864, he tells Alexander Hale Smith another, you know, child of Joseph Smith, that in fact Joseph had taught practice plural marriage. And that is, you know, a demonstration that at least some part of his testimony is not really accurate. It was never, ever, ever taught. Joseph never taught it. But you yourself are, at an earlier point in your life, telling people that Joseph did teach it. So there's some discrepancy there. This is another example, of course, where you can go through all of this and make all kinds of arguments. Is it possible that Joseph designated his son to be a successor?
Gerrit So, look, is it a source? Yes. Is it a very difficult source? Yeah, because, you know, in 1864, he tells Alexander Hale Smith another, you know, child of Joseph Smith, that in fact Joseph had taught practice plural marriage. And that is, you know, a demonstration that at least some part of his testimony is not really accurate. It was never, ever, ever taught. Joseph never taught it. But you yourself are, at an earlier point in your life, telling people that Joseph did teach it. So there's some discrepancy there. This is another example, of course, where you can go through all of this and make all kinds of arguments. Is it possible that Joseph designated his son to be a successor?
Gerrit Of course it's possible. But the real determination of whether or not that took place, the real determination of which church is following what Joseph Smith taught can really just be done by examining what Joseph Smith taught. And you don't even have to go very far. Joseph Smith loved and repeatedly taught the doctrine and baptism of the dead and work for the dead repeatedly, over and over and over again. Multiple letters to individuals in the church, multiple letters to the church, multiple things that are in the Doctrine and Covenants, revelations surrounding it, ideas about it, descriptions of it, the entire purpose of building the temple with the oxen basin in the basement for the baptisms.
Gerrit Of course it's possible. But the real determination of whether or not that took place, the real determination of which church is following what Joseph Smith taught can really just be done by examining what Joseph Smith taught. And you don't even have to go very far. Joseph Smith loved and repeatedly taught the doctrine and baptism of the dead and work for the dead repeatedly, over and over and over again. Multiple letters to individuals in the church, multiple letters to the church, multiple things that are in the Doctrine and Covenants, revelations surrounding it, ideas about it, descriptions of it, the entire purpose of building the temple with the oxen basin in the basement for the baptisms.
Gerrit There is no way to make a historical argument that Joseph Smith was not certain that baptisms for the dead were an essential part of the gospel. So which church practices baptisms for the dead? It's a very easy question to answer. It's also very clear that Joseph Smith believes that other temple ordinances are essential for exaltation. There are hundreds and hundreds of documents that relate to Joseph Smith teaching this, including his Doctrine and Covenants section 124, which is a gigantic revelation, talking about the essential nature of the temple, the essential nature of the work done in it, the essential nature of washings and anointings, of endowments, of the work for the dead.
Gerrit There is no way to make a historical argument that Joseph Smith was not certain that baptisms for the dead were an essential part of the gospel. So which church practices baptisms for the dead? It's a very easy question to answer. It's also very clear that Joseph Smith believes that other temple ordinances are essential for exaltation. There are hundreds and hundreds of documents that relate to Joseph Smith teaching this, including his Doctrine and Covenants section 124, which is a gigantic revelation, talking about the essential nature of the temple, the essential nature of the work done in it, the essential nature of washings and anointings, of endowments, of the work for the dead.
Gerrit Why is Joseph saying that we cannot be made perfect without our dead, and our dead cannot be made perfect without us? Why is he teaching this? If temple work and work for the dead is not essential. Now I understand. Someone can argue who's from one of these groups. Well, yeah, I know Joseph said that, but I don't think that was essential doctrine. I think he was just being experimental in his theology. And I think he just was saying things that, you know, he was just speculating, but it wasn't actually essential. Okay, I understand why you believe that, and I understand that it's fine to have that belief. But there's no way to argue that that belief, a rejection of current practice of baptism for the dead, that that comes from Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Why is Joseph saying that we cannot be made perfect without our dead, and our dead cannot be made perfect without us? Why is he teaching this? If temple work and work for the dead is not essential. Now I understand. Someone can argue who's from one of these groups. Well, yeah, I know Joseph said that, but I don't think that was essential doctrine. I think he was just being experimental in his theology. And I think he just was saying things that, you know, he was just speculating, but it wasn't actually essential. Okay, I understand why you believe that, and I understand that it's fine to have that belief. But there's no way to argue that that belief, a rejection of current practice of baptism for the dead, that that comes from Joseph Smith.
Gerrit There just isn't. All kinds of discussions can be had about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, but even scholars from the Reorganized Church from the Community of Christ, they will say, it's clear that Joseph Smith did teach and practice plural marriage. So even anyone who's making the argument inside of that faith tradition is making the argument in opposition to what their own scholars have admitted. Again, you can say, well, but he realized it was a mistake. Yes, you can say those things. But to say that Joseph realized it was wrong or Joseph was just speculating, you don't have sources for that. So I would say if you are looking for a church that continues to teach the things that Joseph was teaching all throughout his life and all throughout his time in Nauvoo, you don't go very far before you realize that there are a lot of things that he taught in Nauvoo that are just not being taught or accepted by the various other restoration branches.
Gerrit There just isn't. All kinds of discussions can be had about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, but even scholars from the Reorganized Church from the Community of Christ, they will say, it's clear that Joseph Smith did teach and practice plural marriage. So even anyone who's making the argument inside of that faith tradition is making the argument in opposition to what their own scholars have admitted. Again, you can say, well, but he realized it was a mistake. Yes, you can say those things. But to say that Joseph realized it was wrong or Joseph was just speculating, you don't have sources for that. So I would say if you are looking for a church that continues to teach the things that Joseph was teaching all throughout his life and all throughout his time in Nauvoo, you don't go very far before you realize that there are a lot of things that he taught in Nauvoo that are just not being taught or accepted by the various other restoration branches.
Gerrit There are no temple works, there are no baptism for the dead, no temple endowments, and yes, of course, someone can say Joseph Smith was in error in presenting those, but then it's this person claiming that Joseph was in error, not the historical records. The records don't say that. Joseph never says, my bad, we never should have done baptisms for the dead ever. So I think that's a really good way to, you know, if you're struggling to figure out, well, who really followed Joseph Smith? Who really had those keys? I submit, of course, I obviously have a bias, I'm a member of the church, but I would submit that the church that continued to teach, temple ordinances, the way that Joseph Smith was teaching them, is certainly more likely to be the successor to Joseph's teachings and priesthood than various other churches that are rejecting those teachings because they were so central to Joseph.
Gerrit There are no temple works, there are no baptism for the dead, no temple endowments, and yes, of course, someone can say Joseph Smith was in error in presenting those, but then it's this person claiming that Joseph was in error, not the historical records. The records don't say that. Joseph never says, my bad, we never should have done baptisms for the dead ever. So I think that's a really good way to, you know, if you're struggling to figure out, well, who really followed Joseph Smith? Who really had those keys? I submit, of course, I obviously have a bias, I'm a member of the church, but I would submit that the church that continued to teach, temple ordinances, the way that Joseph Smith was teaching them, is certainly more likely to be the successor to Joseph's teachings and priesthood than various other churches that are rejecting those teachings because they were so central to Joseph.
Gerrit You don't have to even be an expert on Joseph Smith to read the things that he says about baptism for the dead, to come away going, this is a really big deal to Joseph Smith. This is not casual. This is not speculative. This is not a single document. This is over the course of four years, over and over and over and over and over again, teaching it publicly, teaching it privately, reiterating it over and over and over again. And I just don't, I don't really see any ability to justify dropping it as a teaching with anything close to a claim that Joseph realized it was not a true doctrine. You basically have to say, well, I realize that it's not a true doctrine, so that's why I don't follow it. Okay, but I mean, some of the evidence of who's following Joseph Smith can be found in what they have to say about Joseph Smith.
Gerrit You don't have to even be an expert on Joseph Smith to read the things that he says about baptism for the dead, to come away going, this is a really big deal to Joseph Smith. This is not casual. This is not speculative. This is not a single document. This is over the course of four years, over and over and over and over and over again, teaching it publicly, teaching it privately, reiterating it over and over and over again. And I just don't, I don't really see any ability to justify dropping it as a teaching with anything close to a claim that Joseph realized it was not a true doctrine. You basically have to say, well, I realize that it's not a true doctrine, so that's why I don't follow it. Okay, but I mean, some of the evidence of who's following Joseph Smith can be found in what they have to say about Joseph Smith.
Gerrit I mean, we've talked about before on this podcast that the Hedrickites, you know, they, or the Bickertonites, they love the Book of Mormon. They believe every word of the Book of Mormon. They don't believe in a single revelation, that Joseph Smith ever received. So there are sliding scales of where people go with their faith. And I think, I believe it's obvious that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and Brigham Young, they took Joseph Smith's teachings, every one of them at their word. And that's why you see those teachings and temple work perpetuated in the church today. Well, we're way out of time. I'm sure Richard's frantic over there, wondering why he did the YooHoo.
Gerrit I mean, we've talked about before on this podcast that the Hedrickites, you know, they, or the Bickertonites, they love the Book of Mormon. They believe every word of the Book of Mormon. They don't believe in a single revelation, that Joseph Smith ever received. So there are sliding scales of where people go with their faith. And I think, I believe it's obvious that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and Brigham Young, they took Joseph Smith's teachings, every one of them at their word. And that's why you see those teachings and temple work perpetuated in the church today. Well, we're way out of time. I'm sure Richard's frantic over there, wondering why he did the YooHoo.
Richard Well, it was so good. Sheila's email was so good. We are way over time, but Gerrit, it's just great to have you back. I know that this is the second episode of the new year, but it's the first one that since you're back in the new year, since because we recorded that one earlier. So anyway, it's fine.
Richard Well, it was so good. Sheila's email was so good. We are way over time, but Gerrit, it's just great to have you back. I know that this is the second episode of the new year, but it's the first one that since you're back in the new year, since because we recorded that one earlier. So anyway, it's fine.
Gerrit Thank you so much for joining us. Hopefully I don't sound like a dying frog next time, but probably still, yes.
Gerrit Thank you so much for joining us. Hopefully I don't sound like a dying frog next time, but probably still, yes.
Richard I hope so.
Richard I hope so.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any linePastor Derrick's more of a youth pastor name.
When in fact, you just have a Dutch name that's hard to pronounce.
But he said, if you knew what I know, you would run.
And you have to immediately ask yourself, why, if someone's argument is good, would they have to lie to make it?
When people show that they're willing to be deceptive to make an argument, run.
If the church needs to change something, the angel isn't coming to you.
Now, this to me says, if you're driving somewhere and you run out of antifreeze in your radiator, you could theoretically to get to the next town or YooHoo in it as a stopgap.
I mean, your car would be destroyed, but it would have a great chocolate scent.
I didn't think it was obvious. I thought I played it off perfectly.
Source shelf
16 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersother
Elder Holland's written review of volume 3 of the Joseph Smith Papers, on Philastus Hurlbut
I have had just about enough of this Dr. Philastus Hurlbut.
Reviewing the volume, Elder Holland wrote that he'd had enough of Hurlbut, the man who tried to tie the Book of Mormon to Solomon Spalding.
sermon
President Holland, unscheduled remarks to Gerrit's faculty, months before his death
if you knew what I know, you would run.
Gerrit remembers the spirit in the room when he spoke near the end of his life.
sermon
Jeffrey R. Holland, April 2001 general conference talk on senior missionaries (Elder and Sister Hess of Ashton, Idaho)
Richard says this story of potato farmers in Belarus is one reason he went back for his PhD.
sermon
Gordon B. Hinckley, talk on gambling
A running joke for the hosts, who 'well know and follow' it.
sermon
James E. Faust, talk about pretending to be asleep while his grandmother fetched wood (title not named on air)
Another talk Richard says still moves him.
other
Jeffrey R. Holland's testimony of Joseph and Hyrum Smith with the Book of Mormon, played at Carthage Jail
They were reading the very book they would have been lying about when they were murdered.
letter
Kevin, listener email from Washington State
I got an e-mail today that was disguised as a church e-mail, but was really a message designed to undermine faith
A bishopric member describes a fake church email meant to undermine faith.
other
"Church-wide program, informed consent" email from a so-called Church History Society (sent through Mailchimp)
Dear brothers and sisters, today, we have an opportunity of spiritual importance
Gerrit walks through its fake sender, invented claims about the Gospel Topics Essays, and false address.
article
Gospel Topics Essay on the Book of Abraham
The fake email misstates it; the essay says we don't have most of the papyrus.
letter
Sheila, listener email from Fairbanks, Alaska (the YooHoo experiments)
With a trip to Alaska for Christmas and anticipated cold weather, I decided to do some YooHoo experimentation.
A Honolulu listener tests Gerrit's claim that YooHoo won't chill or freeze.
letter
An elder from Missouri, listener email
A missionary passes along a friend's claim that Joseph named Joseph Smith III his successor.
other
Purported blessing of Joseph Smith III, 17 January 1844, attributed to Thomas Bullock (a Mark Hofmann forgery)
To be my successor to the presidency of the high priesthood, a seer and revelator and prophet unto the church
Gerrit says it was never in Bullock's journal and is on the list of known Hofmann forgeries. Said on air as known 'for 24 years, 25 years'; Hofmann's forgeries came to light in the mid-1980s, so it's closer to 40.
record
James Whitehead testimony, Temple Lot case (1892)
I recollect a meeting was held in winter of 1843. Prior to Joseph Smith's death, where the appointment was made by him
Whitehead claims Joseph named his son successor, but also swears polygamy was never taught, which he contradicted earlier.
other
James Whitehead statement to Alexander Hale Smith (1864)
Whitehead earlier told Joseph's son that Joseph taught plural marriage.
revelation
D&C 124
A gigantic revelation on the essential nature of the temple and its ordinances.
revelation
D&C 128:15 (identified, not cited on air)
we cannot be made perfect without our dead, and our dead cannot be made perfect without us
Gerrit paraphrases Joseph's teaching that we cannot be made perfect without our dead.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What did the British pastor at the Garden Tomb keep calling Gerrit?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:14:36long
3.1 minbefore the topic starts
16sources read or named
2scripture passages
4different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1843 to 1892
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 9,407 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Plural marriage16 mentions, 3.4 times the show’s usual rate
- Temples and ordinances28 mentions, 2.2 times the show’s usual rate
- Faith and prayer17 mentions, 1.5 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 59Jesus Christ 9Russell M. Nelson 3Brigham Young 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Holland 11successor 9potato 9experiment 6carton 4credibility 5
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundA Thomas Bullock document shows Joseph Smith blessed Joseph Smith III to be his successor.
Joseph's temple teachings, like baptism for the dead, were just speculation he later dropped.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textWhen a source is willing to lie to make its point, Gerrit's advice is simple: stop engaging with it, because you can't trust the parts you can't check.
If someone claims to be a devoted member while teaching that the current prophet is wrong, that's the moment to end the conversation; the angel isn't coming to them.
President Holland's last message to BYU faculty: if we knew what he knows, we would run from house to house to share the gospel.
The question of who succeeded Joseph can be tested by what Joseph taught: which church kept baptism for the dead and the temple ordinances he called essential?
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadThe usurperWith Gerrit's voice gone, Richard is ready with 20 minutes on reciprocity and 20 on prospect theory (0:38, 1:11).
Pastor DerrickA Garden Tomb guide gives Gerrit a new name and an honorary doctorate of divinity; Richard says it's a youth-pastor name with a guitar (5:43, 8:31, callback 21:09).
Dead and in Hell 11Richard tries to start it; Gerrit says Utah history is now 'season 38 material' (2:37, 2:55).
Kristy's Corner, out of contextKevin's bishop asks who Christy is and what her corner is about (22:05).
The dandometerThey lost the trademark on 'dandermeter,' so it's 'dandometer' now (23:24, 23:28).
PotatoesIdaho potato yields, Yukon Golds in the Tri-Cities, and Gerrit noting there's already been a lot of potato talk (16:35, 24:38).
Missing magentaThe fake email's church logo looks like a fourth-grade printer out of every color but yellow (26:54, 33:52).
Yoo-hooSheila's Fairbanks experiments: liquid at zero, frozen only after 24 hours at twenty below, and a Nobel nomination (47:01, 50:30, 52:17).
The crack research staffGerrit converts zero Fahrenheit to Celsius on air after Richard guesses negative 33 (50:07, 50:25).
We can be boughtA YooHoo sponsorship would change the logo to Joseph drinking one; 'just no one's buying' (49:08, 49:24).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airSummaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardMark Hofmann's forgeries and how historians identified which documents were fake (59:22).
The 1892 Temple Lot case: who sued whom over the Independence temple lot and why succession came up (1:00:28).
Joseph Smith's teachings on baptism for the dead in D&C 124 and his letters to the church (1:06:45).
Philastus Hurlbut, the Spalding theory, and the documents in Joseph Smith Papers, Documents volume 3 (11:24).
SOT Litner · S6E2.