The, the, the Richard you're going to listen to is, is a much dumber Richard.
Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 22 · 59:29
King Follett Sermon Part 1
Joseph Smith gave some of his deepest doctrine at funerals, because, as Gerrit puts it, that's when people are thinking hardest about God and the afterlife.
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The question ·
We have received several requests from listeners, namely Aaron H and Marilee B., who wanted to know a little bit more about the King Follett sermon.
Aaron and Marilee (listeners)
Pulled 'from the dark and dusty files' of the archive, this episode was recorded in January 2022 and shelved because the King Follett sermon felt too big to tackle. Gerrit lays the groundwork: Joseph used funeral sermons to teach about the other side, from the Higbee funeral to an 1843 sermon on sealing power and the purpose of creation, which is to exalt man to be as God. He explains that King Follett was a faithful man crushed in a well, why the surviving accounts were edited in longhand, and why Joseph felt death so deeply after losing children and his brother Alvin. Richard calls it a tragedy that Joseph was killed just months later, and the episode stops on Joseph's own question: what kind of a being is God?
Who comes upJoseph SmithKing FollettElias HigbeeAbrahamMelchizedekElijahMosesAlvin Smith
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150 moments · tap a time to play from thereGerrit From the dark and dusty files of the Standard of Truth Archive. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. Sorry, sorry. The reason why I started off like that is what we are dropping today is something that we recorded many years ago. Four years ago?
Gerrit From the dark and dusty files of the Standard of Truth Archive. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. Sorry, sorry. The reason why I started off like that is what we are dropping today is something that we recorded many years ago. Four years ago?
Richard January of 2022.
Richard January of 2022.
Gerrit Wow. Yeah. So more than that even. Yeah. So, and it was on the King Follett Sermon. And I realized that that's pretty heavy. And after realizing that I would have to do like, I don't know, 75 episodes to even approach it and deciding, you know what, I don't really think we want to do this. Let's just punt on that. And let's talk more about whether or not Jingle Bells is a good song. And so, so I said, let's punt. So we've had sitting in our, in our, in our, you know, coffers, like, something like this, but sitting in our archives for years, we've had this episode that you're about to hear. So please excuse the very dated references and the fact that I might have been better back then than I am now, almost certainly.
Gerrit Wow. Yeah. So more than that even. Yeah. So, and it was on the King Follett Sermon. And I realized that that's pretty heavy. And after realizing that I would have to do like, I don't know, 75 episodes to even approach it and deciding, you know what, I don't really think we want to do this. Let's just punt on that. And let's talk more about whether or not Jingle Bells is a good song. And so, so I said, let's punt. So we've had sitting in our, in our, in our, you know, coffers, like, something like this, but sitting in our archives for years, we've had this episode that you're about to hear. So please excuse the very dated references and the fact that I might have been better back then than I am now, almost certainly.
Richard Well, yes. And, and you're going to hear now, the Richard that you've, by the way, Gerrit, thanks for having me back. The, the, the Richard you're going to listen to is, is a much dumber Richard. This is, this is Dr. Richard LeDuc, obviously, here before you. That Richard was a, was a far, he was barely adjunct Professor LeDuc. Barely, barely clinging to that. And, and he, so I want to apologize in advance for probably any of the reading that I do that is, that is poor compared to the, the reading that I do now that is, that is so, is so perfect, much like a West Ham football fan.
Richard Well, yes. And, and you're going to hear now, the Richard that you've, by the way, Gerrit, thanks for having me back. The, the, the Richard you're going to listen to is, is a much dumber Richard. This is, this is Dr. Richard LeDuc, obviously, here before you. That Richard was a, was a far, he was barely adjunct Professor LeDuc. Barely, barely clinging to that. And, and he, so I want to apologize in advance for probably any of the reading that I do that is, that is poor compared to the, the reading that I do now that is, that is so, is so perfect, much like a West Ham football fan.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, they won't know that joke till the next episode. So listen, we had an inquiry about this. We decided that we were going to talk about it. Then we decided, you know what, we probably need to release this, because we talk about a lot of the groundwork leading up to the King Follett Sermon in this episode. So we are releasing. So this is like from the lost tracks from your favorite band, only if it was a band that you didn't like and didn't want any of their lost tracks. So think of a band that you don't like. We found out from some of you that you were not as big a fans of Dominic the Donkey as I am. We had several fans ride in and tell us how much they hated it. But so it is a little bit of a blast from the past. So we're just introing it here so that you know what we're doing. And then in the next episode, we're going to kind of talk about it again. As we move towards a conversation about the multiple versions of this sermon and its importance in Latter-day Saint theology and why it's so often attacked by those who reject the truth claims of our faith.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, they won't know that joke till the next episode. So listen, we had an inquiry about this. We decided that we were going to talk about it. Then we decided, you know what, we probably need to release this, because we talk about a lot of the groundwork leading up to the King Follett Sermon in this episode. So we are releasing. So this is like from the lost tracks from your favorite band, only if it was a band that you didn't like and didn't want any of their lost tracks. So think of a band that you don't like. We found out from some of you that you were not as big a fans of Dominic the Donkey as I am. We had several fans ride in and tell us how much they hated it. But so it is a little bit of a blast from the past. So we're just introing it here so that you know what we're doing. And then in the next episode, we're going to kind of talk about it again. As we move towards a conversation about the multiple versions of this sermon and its importance in Latter-day Saint theology and why it's so often attacked by those who reject the truth claims of our faith.
Gerrit Does that sound good, Richard? You think?
Gerrit Does that sound good, Richard? You think?
Richard No, it's great. So for what it's worth, I love the topic and I loved this episode and was bummed that we didn't release it. And you have spoken about a lot of these things. There's a lot of episodes about the nature of God, D&C 93. There's a lot of elements over the past six years of us doing this where you've talked about a lot of these different things in the 510-plus episodes that we've done. But this one cuts to the quick and for what it's worth, I really enjoyed it.
Richard No, it's great. So for what it's worth, I love the topic and I loved this episode and was bummed that we didn't release it. And you have spoken about a lot of these things. There's a lot of episodes about the nature of God, D&C 93. There's a lot of elements over the past six years of us doing this where you've talked about a lot of these different things in the 510-plus episodes that we've done. But this one cuts to the quick and for what it's worth, I really enjoyed it.
Gerrit So everyone should know I have not yet re-listened to it since we first recorded it. So for all I know, I could be saying some of the dumbest things and then everyone listening is like, yeah, so it's just like a regular podcast then? Yeah, it's just like a regular podcast then? So bear with us and we will take you on the King Follett Odyssey, which sounds like it would be a good name for a song.
Gerrit So everyone should know I have not yet re-listened to it since we first recorded it. So for all I know, I could be saying some of the dumbest things and then everyone listening is like, yeah, so it's just like a regular podcast then? Yeah, it's just like a regular podcast then? So bear with us and we will take you on the King Follett Odyssey, which sounds like it would be a good name for a song.
Richard It would be a great name for a song, for sure.
Richard It would be a great name for a song, for sure.
Gerrit Yeah. Okay. We're going to work on that. We're going to workshop that. We'll get back to you. Thanks so much for listening. Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Yeah. Okay. We're going to work on that. We're going to workshop that. We'll get back to you. Thanks so much for listening. Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we have received several requests from listeners, namely Aaron H and Marilee B., who wanted to know a little bit more about the King Follett sermon.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we have received several requests from listeners, namely Aaron H and Marilee B., who wanted to know a little bit more about the King Follett sermon.
Gerrit Wow, so we're gonna just-
Gerrit Wow, so we're gonna just-
Richard We're gonna dive right in.
Richard We're gonna dive right in.
Gerrit Dive right in to, that's a heavy one. So, the first time I heard about the King Follett sermon, I thought that it was about like a king of a country named Follett.
Gerrit Dive right in to, that's a heavy one. So, the first time I heard about the King Follett sermon, I thought that it was about like a king of a country named Follett.
Richard So did I. On my mission, I'd heard it and I thought almost exactly the same thing.
Richard So did I. On my mission, I'd heard it and I thought almost exactly the same thing.
Gerrit Well, I mean, the doctrine that's presented in the King Follett sermon is so radical that it is, in and of itself, something that is, you know, we talk all the time about what makes us blaspheming Latter-day Saints as, you know, in Christian eyes. This is one of those things.
Gerrit Well, I mean, the doctrine that's presented in the King Follett sermon is so radical that it is, in and of itself, something that is, you know, we talk all the time about what makes us blaspheming Latter-day Saints as, you know, in Christian eyes. This is one of those things.
Richard Well, you've mentioned several things. You talk a lot, actually, about the radical nature of our doctrine, whether it's Moses 1, D&C 76, D&C 93.
Richard Well, you've mentioned several things. You talk a lot, actually, about the radical nature of our doctrine, whether it's Moses 1, D&C 76, D&C 93.
Gerrit There's all kinds of rat, but the King Follett Sermon is like the, it's like the dessert. It is, well, really, it's actually more, it's like the conglomeration of them all. I mean, if you had to look at Joseph Smith's revelations that he receives and reveals to the world, in many ways, the King Follett Sermon is a, it's a logical extension of what the Lord has already revealed in things like Doctrine and Coven, Section 93, and Doctrine and Coven, Section 76, and in Moses 1. And so, but it's very clear and it's very straightforward, and frankly, it's actually very difficult to wrap your heads around it. So before we even get to the sermon, it's important to know that Joseph, in that sermon, says that it will take you a long time after you've died to understand this.
Gerrit There's all kinds of rat, but the King Follett Sermon is like the, it's like the dessert. It is, well, really, it's actually more, it's like the conglomeration of them all. I mean, if you had to look at Joseph Smith's revelations that he receives and reveals to the world, in many ways, the King Follett Sermon is a, it's a logical extension of what the Lord has already revealed in things like Doctrine and Coven, Section 93, and Doctrine and Coven, Section 76, and in Moses 1. And so, but it's very clear and it's very straightforward, and frankly, it's actually very difficult to wrap your heads around it. So before we even get to the sermon, it's important to know that Joseph, in that sermon, says that it will take you a long time after you've died to understand this.
Richard So this will be a three-parter then?
Richard So this will be a three-parter then?
Gerrit It'll be a 38-parter. I mean, why am I planning to die in three episodes, I guess? I mean, the reality is it is very complex and difficult, but I know people hear about it all the time. So let's at least address it and talk about it. All of this, of course, stems from the very radical Latter-day Saint belief that we believe we can become like God. And that is something that, you know, a primary child like, you know, could could probably recite to somebody. But it is the the pinnacle of blasphemy to a Christian. The idea that we believe we could become like God is just, it is a blasphemy to what they believe God is. As we talked about this before, they believe God is the only self-existent being. And that what makes God God is that God has always existed.
Gerrit It'll be a 38-parter. I mean, why am I planning to die in three episodes, I guess? I mean, the reality is it is very complex and difficult, but I know people hear about it all the time. So let's at least address it and talk about it. All of this, of course, stems from the very radical Latter-day Saint belief that we believe we can become like God. And that is something that, you know, a primary child like, you know, could could probably recite to somebody. But it is the the pinnacle of blasphemy to a Christian. The idea that we believe we could become like God is just, it is a blasphemy to what they believe God is. As we talked about this before, they believe God is the only self-existent being. And that what makes God God is that God has always existed.
Gerrit And we talked about this with Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. The claim that we have existed as long as God is already, you know, ripping apart the traditional Christian understanding of who we even are. The King Follett Sermon is going to go even further into what type of being God is. And in perhaps the most blasphemous sentence ever uttered by any Christian, how God came to be God. Now, to a Latter-day Saint, this doctrine can be confusing and yet beautiful. To a Christian, it seems like the height of arrogance. It seems like the denigration of God to describe this very thing. The aseity of God we once talked about when everyone stopped listening.
Gerrit And we talked about this with Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. The claim that we have existed as long as God is already, you know, ripping apart the traditional Christian understanding of who we even are. The King Follett Sermon is going to go even further into what type of being God is. And in perhaps the most blasphemous sentence ever uttered by any Christian, how God came to be God. Now, to a Latter-day Saint, this doctrine can be confusing and yet beautiful. To a Christian, it seems like the height of arrogance. It seems like the denigration of God to describe this very thing. The aseity of God we once talked about when everyone stopped listening.
Gerrit So prepare for that again. I remember when I first learned about the doctrine that we could become like God, I was actually reading the Doctrine and Covenants as a teenager and I came to that in Doctrine and Covenants section 132, that said that they are gods, that the people who have been exalted, that they're gods, never had heard that before. I say we hear about it in primary. I never heard about it in my primary. I remember going and talking to my dad and saying, Dad, this says we're going to become gods. My dad's response was, well, not unless you start acting better, which I thought was, I mean.
Gerrit So prepare for that again. I remember when I first learned about the doctrine that we could become like God, I was actually reading the Doctrine and Covenants as a teenager and I came to that in Doctrine and Covenants section 132, that said that they are gods, that the people who have been exalted, that they're gods, never had heard that before. I say we hear about it in primary. I never heard about it in my primary. I remember going and talking to my dad and saying, Dad, this says we're going to become gods. My dad's response was, well, not unless you start acting better, which I thought was, I mean.
Richard You took that opportunity to get on you about not doing the dishes.
Richard You took that opportunity to get on you about not doing the dishes.
Gerrit He really did, yeah. We could have rejoiced together in this truth that I've learned.
Gerrit He really did, yeah. We could have rejoiced together in this truth that I've learned.
Richard We're going to become gods.
Richard We're going to become gods.
Gerrit But damn, it was just a very matter of fact thing. Of course we're going to become like gods. Why haven't you mowed the lawn, that kind of thing. I think a lot of Latter-day Saints don't recognize how radical that belief is. But it's the reason why a Christian, it's one of the reasons why a Christian is going to say, you believe in a different God. You worship a different Jesus. The very fact that you think that that's even possible. And as we talked about before, a Latter-day Saint might say something like, yeah, but if God is all-powerful, why couldn't he make me like, why wouldn't God want me as his child to be like him? I want the same things for my children to have everything I have and more, right? But remember the theological problem with that for a Christian, and that is they believe that God is the only self-existent being that existed always.
Gerrit But damn, it was just a very matter of fact thing. Of course we're going to become like gods. Why haven't you mowed the lawn, that kind of thing. I think a lot of Latter-day Saints don't recognize how radical that belief is. But it's the reason why a Christian, it's one of the reasons why a Christian is going to say, you believe in a different God. You worship a different Jesus. The very fact that you think that that's even possible. And as we talked about before, a Latter-day Saint might say something like, yeah, but if God is all-powerful, why couldn't he make me like, why wouldn't God want me as his child to be like him? I want the same things for my children to have everything I have and more, right? But remember the theological problem with that for a Christian, and that is they believe that God is the only self-existent being that existed always.
Gerrit And so, however much power, glory, authority, you know, God gives you after this life, the one thing that a Christian will admit to that God can't do is God can't make you exactly like him, because God can't make you always have existed, because he created you. So you can't always have existed. You can only exist going forward. Sure, that's fine. But you can't always have existed. Well, Joseph Smith is going to receive a very different understanding of God through the process of his revelations. And it'd be helpful if you have a chance, if you haven't listened to our Doctrine and Covenants section 93, there's a lot in there, but I think it'd be helpful for you to go back and review it if you don't remember, or if you haven't heard it for the first time, or if you've heard it for the seventh time, or you're still downloading it, trying to figure out how to get it to play on whatever Zoom you're using to listen to this, then again, just keep downloading it, and maybe eventually you'll get it going.
Gerrit And so, however much power, glory, authority, you know, God gives you after this life, the one thing that a Christian will admit to that God can't do is God can't make you exactly like him, because God can't make you always have existed, because he created you. So you can't always have existed. You can only exist going forward. Sure, that's fine. But you can't always have existed. Well, Joseph Smith is going to receive a very different understanding of God through the process of his revelations. And it'd be helpful if you have a chance, if you haven't listened to our Doctrine and Covenants section 93, there's a lot in there, but I think it'd be helpful for you to go back and review it if you don't remember, or if you haven't heard it for the first time, or if you've heard it for the seventh time, or you're still downloading it, trying to figure out how to get it to play on whatever Zoom you're using to listen to this, then again, just keep downloading it, and maybe eventually you'll get it going.
Gerrit Before I get into it, I want to lay the groundwork. One of the aspects of Joseph Smith's life is that he felt very deeply when people passed away. It's interesting that Joseph Smith really seems to use funeral sermons as one of his primary means of giving very powerful information about the other side and about our purpose in this life. Just, you know, a couple of four examples. The doctrine of baptism for the dead, which is again, the height of blasphemy, the idea that you could be saved by a choice you make in the next life rather than one that you make in this life. That's just not what Christians believe. Christians believe that you have to accept Jesus in order to be saved. And then Joseph Smith teaches, except when you don't, which is most of the time.
Gerrit Before I get into it, I want to lay the groundwork. One of the aspects of Joseph Smith's life is that he felt very deeply when people passed away. It's interesting that Joseph Smith really seems to use funeral sermons as one of his primary means of giving very powerful information about the other side and about our purpose in this life. Just, you know, a couple of four examples. The doctrine of baptism for the dead, which is again, the height of blasphemy, the idea that you could be saved by a choice you make in the next life rather than one that you make in this life. That's just not what Christians believe. Christians believe that you have to accept Jesus in order to be saved. And then Joseph Smith teaches, except when you don't, which is most of the time.
Gerrit And that is a very difficult concept for people to wrap their head around in Joseph Smith's time. Today in the church, it's one of these beliefs that's just, oh great, I love this. I love the idea of baptism for the dead. But it was at Seymour Brunson's funeral that Joseph is going to outline this idea that we could be baptized in behalf of our deceased loved ones who never had an opportunity to be baptized. So it's at these funerals that Joseph often slips from this world into another. And one of those I want to highlight first is what he says at the funeral of one of his really close friends, Elias Higbee. Judge Higbee, he was a judge. He and Joseph had been very, very close with one another. It is a very sad commentary, very unfortunate reality that Higbee's kids become full on apostates.
Gerrit And that is a very difficult concept for people to wrap their head around in Joseph Smith's time. Today in the church, it's one of these beliefs that's just, oh great, I love this. I love the idea of baptism for the dead. But it was at Seymour Brunson's funeral that Joseph is going to outline this idea that we could be baptized in behalf of our deceased loved ones who never had an opportunity to be baptized. So it's at these funerals that Joseph often slips from this world into another. And one of those I want to highlight first is what he says at the funeral of one of his really close friends, Elias Higbee. Judge Higbee, he was a judge. He and Joseph had been very, very close with one another. It is a very sad commentary, very unfortunate reality that Higbee's kids become full on apostates.
Gerrit They are actually two of those who are part of the Nauvoo Expositor that is going to be the forerunner of Joseph's first arrest and then murder in Carthage Jail. When Higbee dies, Joseph gives this funeral sermon. And we have a couple of different accounts of it. I'm going to I'm going to use the one that's this is 13 August 1843. It's coming from Martha Jane Nolten Corey. She says, well, she records that Joseph said there is a thought more dreadful than that of total annihilation. That is a thought that we shall never meet with those and meet again with those we loved here on earth. Think about it, that's way that the way he's at least opening this up. Worse than not existing is not being with people that you love. That's worse.
Gerrit They are actually two of those who are part of the Nauvoo Expositor that is going to be the forerunner of Joseph's first arrest and then murder in Carthage Jail. When Higbee dies, Joseph gives this funeral sermon. And we have a couple of different accounts of it. I'm going to I'm going to use the one that's this is 13 August 1843. It's coming from Martha Jane Nolten Corey. She says, well, she records that Joseph said there is a thought more dreadful than that of total annihilation. That is a thought that we shall never meet with those and meet again with those we loved here on earth. Think about it, that's way that the way he's at least opening this up. Worse than not existing is not being with people that you love. That's worse.
Gerrit The worst thing that could happen is that you're not with people we love. I had some idea of a resurrection and glory beyond the grave, which God and angels had secured and yet had not any knowledge or intelligence of any law or any order by which it was to be obtained. This is what, sorry, Joseph's saying suppose that he had died without that. Suppose you die without having some idea of a resurrection and glory, but having no idea how that actually happens. Well, you lose a friend, you come up in the resurrection hoping to see him again, but find yourself separated from them to all eternity and become aware of the fact that through ignorance of principles of the resurrection and reunion, you will never behold that dear friend nor ever enjoy his society.
Gerrit The worst thing that could happen is that you're not with people we love. I had some idea of a resurrection and glory beyond the grave, which God and angels had secured and yet had not any knowledge or intelligence of any law or any order by which it was to be obtained. This is what, sorry, Joseph's saying suppose that he had died without that. Suppose you die without having some idea of a resurrection and glory, but having no idea how that actually happens. Well, you lose a friend, you come up in the resurrection hoping to see him again, but find yourself separated from them to all eternity and become aware of the fact that through ignorance of principles of the resurrection and reunion, you will never behold that dear friend nor ever enjoy his society.
Gerrit This thought, I say, of being disappointed in meeting my friend in the resurrection is, to me, more dreadful than of ceasing to suffer by a cessation of being. Could I tell the fact, as it is, all that heard me would go home and never say one more word about God or Christ or religion until they had received the same assurance from heaven, which would set their souls to rest by placing it all beyond doubt? What consolation have we? What power? What reason to expect one more thing, one thing more than another in eternity? He then quotes Hebrews chapter 12 verse 22. You have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn. And have were they brought thus far, I answer. And for, for what were they brought this far? There's a missing word there.
Gerrit This thought, I say, of being disappointed in meeting my friend in the resurrection is, to me, more dreadful than of ceasing to suffer by a cessation of being. Could I tell the fact, as it is, all that heard me would go home and never say one more word about God or Christ or religion until they had received the same assurance from heaven, which would set their souls to rest by placing it all beyond doubt? What consolation have we? What power? What reason to expect one more thing, one thing more than another in eternity? He then quotes Hebrews chapter 12 verse 22. You have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn. And have were they brought thus far, I answer. And for, for what were they brought this far? There's a missing word there.
Gerrit I answer that they come to these person, which is to learn the things of God, and to hear revealed to them the order and glory of the kingdoms of God. I would ask again, is there a word on record that was revealed by those angels and spirits? If there is, where is it to be found? Again, I inquire, what is the order and organization of the spirits of the just made perfect? Let me tell you, brethren, that which is to be revealed, which is kept from the foundation of the world, will be revealed to sucklings and babes. Then he quotes Malachi Chapter 4, Behold, the day cometh, and that shall burn as an oven. And all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be a stubble, and they that cometh shall burn them up. Although in the beginning God created the earth, standing in the water and out of the water, still in the end it shall be burned and few men left. Before that, God shall send them Elijah the prophet, and he shall reveal unto them the covenants of their fathers with relation to the children, and the covenants of the children relation to their fathers, that they may have the privilege of entering into the same in order to affect their mutual salvation.
Gerrit I answer that they come to these person, which is to learn the things of God, and to hear revealed to them the order and glory of the kingdoms of God. I would ask again, is there a word on record that was revealed by those angels and spirits? If there is, where is it to be found? Again, I inquire, what is the order and organization of the spirits of the just made perfect? Let me tell you, brethren, that which is to be revealed, which is kept from the foundation of the world, will be revealed to sucklings and babes. Then he quotes Malachi Chapter 4, Behold, the day cometh, and that shall burn as an oven. And all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be a stubble, and they that cometh shall burn them up. Although in the beginning God created the earth, standing in the water and out of the water, still in the end it shall be burned and few men left. Before that, God shall send them Elijah the prophet, and he shall reveal unto them the covenants of their fathers with relation to the children, and the covenants of the children relation to their fathers, that they may have the privilege of entering into the same in order to affect their mutual salvation.
Gerrit And I saw another angel descending from the east, having the seal of the living God, and he cried, saying, Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. So, now according to Revelation. Now I would ask, who knows the seal of the living God? Behold the ignorance of the world. A measure of this sealing is to confirm upon their head, in common with Elijah, the doctrine of election or the covenant with Abraham, which when a father and mother of a family have entered into, their children who have not transgressed are secured by the seal wherewith parents have been sealed. And this is the oath of God unto our father Abraham, and this doctrine shall stand forever. He's talking very much about this eternal sealing of families. Mourners, I exhort you to do as your father and husband would direct.
Gerrit And I saw another angel descending from the east, having the seal of the living God, and he cried, saying, Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. So, now according to Revelation. Now I would ask, who knows the seal of the living God? Behold the ignorance of the world. A measure of this sealing is to confirm upon their head, in common with Elijah, the doctrine of election or the covenant with Abraham, which when a father and mother of a family have entered into, their children who have not transgressed are secured by the seal wherewith parents have been sealed. And this is the oath of God unto our father Abraham, and this doctrine shall stand forever. He's talking very much about this eternal sealing of families. Mourners, I exhort you to do as your father and husband would direct.
Gerrit Be sealed by the by the servants of God. For the eternal life is to know the only true God and his son Jesus without which there is no salvation. So you have, you have something going on here where he's already discussing these things of what happens after this life. And explaining that it is this sealing power that's going to allow these families to be together, to be secured forever. That's August 13th. Well, only a few weeks later on August 27th, he's going to be giving a sermon in which he's going to, he's going to be talking about the power of the priesthood and the powers in the world. And he's going to express something that he's going to reiterate multiple times. Again, he's going to be talking about this same sealing power.
Gerrit Be sealed by the by the servants of God. For the eternal life is to know the only true God and his son Jesus without which there is no salvation. So you have, you have something going on here where he's already discussing these things of what happens after this life. And explaining that it is this sealing power that's going to allow these families to be together, to be secured forever. That's August 13th. Well, only a few weeks later on August 27th, he's going to be giving a sermon in which he's going to, he's going to be talking about the power of the priesthood and the powers in the world. And he's going to express something that he's going to reiterate multiple times. Again, he's going to be talking about this same sealing power.
Gerrit Let's go to this point here. This is a sermon Joseph Smith is giving August 27th, 1843. Abraham's priesthood was of a greater power than Levi's, and Melchizedek's was of a greater power than Abraham. He says, I ask, was there any sealing power attending to this priesthood, talking about the Levitical priesthood, that would admit a man into the presence of God? Oh no. But Abraham's was a more exalted power or priesthood. He could talk and walk with God, and yet consider how this great man was when even this patriarch Abraham gave a 10th part of his spoils, as he's talking about Melchizedek, and then received a blessing under the hands of Melchizedek. Even the last law or a fullness of the law or priesthood, which constituted him a king and a priest after the order of Melchizedek, or an endless life. Now, if Abraham had been like the sectarian world, and would not have received any more revelation, what would have been the consequence?
Gerrit Let's go to this point here. This is a sermon Joseph Smith is giving August 27th, 1843. Abraham's priesthood was of a greater power than Levi's, and Melchizedek's was of a greater power than Abraham. He says, I ask, was there any sealing power attending to this priesthood, talking about the Levitical priesthood, that would admit a man into the presence of God? Oh no. But Abraham's was a more exalted power or priesthood. He could talk and walk with God, and yet consider how this great man was when even this patriarch Abraham gave a 10th part of his spoils, as he's talking about Melchizedek, and then received a blessing under the hands of Melchizedek. Even the last law or a fullness of the law or priesthood, which constituted him a king and a priest after the order of Melchizedek, or an endless life. Now, if Abraham had been like the sectarian world, and would not have received any more revelation, what would have been the consequence?
Gerrit It would have damned him. So he's, first of all, he's using kind of a part of the reaction to this is that, as Joseph receives revelation, of course, the reaction from most people is, well, that can't be true because that's not what I read in the Bible. When they've made the Bible the end of all knowledge that they can receive, anytime Joseph teaches something that's not in the Bible, the response is, well, then that must not be true. Well, then how can you ever receive any truth if it's not already in the Bible? Many Protestants would say, well, you can't. Well, the truth is in the Bible. The Levitical Priesthood was an appendage to the Melchizedek Priesthood or the whole law of God. When in full force or power in all of its parts and bearings on the earth, it is understood by many by reading this chapter that Melchizedek was king of some country or nation on earth, but it was not so. In the original, it reads King of Shalom, which signifies king of peace or righteousness, and not of any country or nation.
Gerrit It would have damned him. So he's, first of all, he's using kind of a part of the reaction to this is that, as Joseph receives revelation, of course, the reaction from most people is, well, that can't be true because that's not what I read in the Bible. When they've made the Bible the end of all knowledge that they can receive, anytime Joseph teaches something that's not in the Bible, the response is, well, then that must not be true. Well, then how can you ever receive any truth if it's not already in the Bible? Many Protestants would say, well, you can't. Well, the truth is in the Bible. The Levitical Priesthood was an appendage to the Melchizedek Priesthood or the whole law of God. When in full force or power in all of its parts and bearings on the earth, it is understood by many by reading this chapter that Melchizedek was king of some country or nation on earth, but it was not so. In the original, it reads King of Shalom, which signifies king of peace or righteousness, and not of any country or nation.
Gerrit Then he really gets to the heart of the reason why I went to this. Not only is he talking about the sealing power in the next life, he says, men will set up stakes and say, thus far will we go and go no further. Think about the imagery that Joseph created. He actually says this in an earlier sermon a couple of weeks earlier. Same thing. Men will set up stakes and say, I'm not going any further beyond this. They seek to dictate to God what it is that is true. Rather than the other way around, they in many ways argue with God, argue with what the prophets of God have to say. They say, no, that's not what I think. And they set up stakes. Okay, fine, I'll go with you that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Okay, even though everyone else says it's not, I believe that it is, but I'm not believing that people can be saved after this life.
Gerrit Then he really gets to the heart of the reason why I went to this. Not only is he talking about the sealing power in the next life, he says, men will set up stakes and say, thus far will we go and go no further. Think about the imagery that Joseph created. He actually says this in an earlier sermon a couple of weeks earlier. Same thing. Men will set up stakes and say, I'm not going any further beyond this. They seek to dictate to God what it is that is true. Rather than the other way around, they in many ways argue with God, argue with what the prophets of God have to say. They say, no, that's not what I think. And they set up stakes. Okay, fine, I'll go with you that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Okay, even though everyone else says it's not, I believe that it is, but I'm not believing that people can be saved after this life.
Gerrit Book of Mormon being the Word of God is one thing, but you're trying to tell me you don't even have to accept Jesus in this life. You can see what he means by setting up stakes. People draw lines in the sand all the time and say, this is as far as I will go in my belief, and I'm not going to go any further. Joseph's response to that idea of rejecting new beliefs because it's further than you want to go is, did Abraham, set up stakes, when called upon to offer his son, did the Savior? No. View him fulfilling all righteousness. Again, on the banks of Jordan. Also on the Mount, transfigured before Peter and John, they're receiving the fullness of the priesthood of the law of God, setting up no stake, but coming right up to the mark in all things here. After he returned from the Mount, did ever a language of such magnitude fall from the lips of any man, harken him?
Gerrit Book of Mormon being the Word of God is one thing, but you're trying to tell me you don't even have to accept Jesus in this life. You can see what he means by setting up stakes. People draw lines in the sand all the time and say, this is as far as I will go in my belief, and I'm not going to go any further. Joseph's response to that idea of rejecting new beliefs because it's further than you want to go is, did Abraham, set up stakes, when called upon to offer his son, did the Savior? No. View him fulfilling all righteousness. Again, on the banks of Jordan. Also on the Mount, transfigured before Peter and John, they're receiving the fullness of the priesthood of the law of God, setting up no stake, but coming right up to the mark in all things here. After he returned from the Mount, did ever a language of such magnitude fall from the lips of any man, harken him?
Gerrit All power is given unto me, both in heaven and on earth. So here, Joseph kind of cuts to the quick pretty quickly in this sermon. Jesus and Abraham perhaps are two most important figures. Obviously, Jesus is our Savior, but if you're just even talking historically, Abraham's the father of all monotheistic religions, and Jesus is clearly the reason for Christianity. Neither one of them set up stakes and said, well, I'll go this far, but I'm not going beyond that. God, you better meet me halfway. There isn't really a meeting halfway there. It is both of them doing exactly what their father asked them to do. Now, why is Joseph talking about this? You'll see the connection here very quickly.
Gerrit All power is given unto me, both in heaven and on earth. So here, Joseph kind of cuts to the quick pretty quickly in this sermon. Jesus and Abraham perhaps are two most important figures. Obviously, Jesus is our Savior, but if you're just even talking historically, Abraham's the father of all monotheistic religions, and Jesus is clearly the reason for Christianity. Neither one of them set up stakes and said, well, I'll go this far, but I'm not going beyond that. God, you better meet me halfway. There isn't really a meeting halfway there. It is both of them doing exactly what their father asked them to do. Now, why is Joseph talking about this? You'll see the connection here very quickly.
Gerrit View the son of God saying that it behooveth me to fulfill all righteousness. Also, in the garden saying, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, thy will be done. Here, I think Joseph is reminding his listeners that while Jesus chose to perform the atonement for us, it wasn't because that's what he wanted to do. Now, of course, he wanted to in the sense that he wanted to save us. But he did it because it was the will of the Father. He did it because that was the only way that he could save us. And that's why he asked God in the garden, if it's possible, let this cup pass from me. If there is any other way to save the sinners of this world outside of this horrific suffering that I'm going through, Jesus asked, please let the cup pass.
Gerrit View the son of God saying that it behooveth me to fulfill all righteousness. Also, in the garden saying, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, thy will be done. Here, I think Joseph is reminding his listeners that while Jesus chose to perform the atonement for us, it wasn't because that's what he wanted to do. Now, of course, he wanted to in the sense that he wanted to save us. But he did it because it was the will of the Father. He did it because that was the only way that he could save us. And that's why he asked God in the garden, if it's possible, let this cup pass from me. If there is any other way to save the sinners of this world outside of this horrific suffering that I'm going through, Jesus asked, please let the cup pass.
Gerrit What was the design of the Almighty in making man? It was to exalt him to be as God. So here in this 1843 sermon, Joseph is being as direct as you possibly can be. Why does humankind exist? So that they can become like God. If you remember a few episodes back talking about the Book of Moses, what is Moses told? It is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The purpose of humankind's existence is so that they can become like God. Moses is telling Joseph that in June, as he receives that revelation, June of 1830, the Lord is telling Moses and now Joseph receiving that revelation, that God's entire purpose is bringing humankind until eternal life.
Gerrit What was the design of the Almighty in making man? It was to exalt him to be as God. So here in this 1843 sermon, Joseph is being as direct as you possibly can be. Why does humankind exist? So that they can become like God. If you remember a few episodes back talking about the Book of Moses, what is Moses told? It is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The purpose of humankind's existence is so that they can become like God. Moses is telling Joseph that in June, as he receives that revelation, June of 1830, the Lord is telling Moses and now Joseph receiving that revelation, that God's entire purpose is bringing humankind until eternal life.
Gerrit And here Joseph is reiterating that, that the purpose is to exalt him to be his God. The scriptures say you are God's and it cannot be broken. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, equal with him, possessing all power, et cetera. The mystery, power and glory of the priesthood is so great and glorious that the angels desire to understand it and cannot. Why? Because of the tradition of them and their fathers in setting up stakes and not coming up to the mark in their probationary state. So, Joseph is clearly part of what he, the point of teaching this is, you can't have a preconceived notion of what it is that you will accept that's being taught by God. You have to, like Abraham, be willing to accept things even if they don't make any sense. I mean, Abraham, the story, just think about this.
Gerrit And here Joseph is reiterating that, that the purpose is to exalt him to be his God. The scriptures say you are God's and it cannot be broken. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, equal with him, possessing all power, et cetera. The mystery, power and glory of the priesthood is so great and glorious that the angels desire to understand it and cannot. Why? Because of the tradition of them and their fathers in setting up stakes and not coming up to the mark in their probationary state. So, Joseph is clearly part of what he, the point of teaching this is, you can't have a preconceived notion of what it is that you will accept that's being taught by God. You have to, like Abraham, be willing to accept things even if they don't make any sense. I mean, Abraham, the story, just think about this.
Gerrit The only reason he has a son is because of a miracle that God wrought upon him. And now that same God is saying that he needs to sacrifice that same son. There doesn't seem to be any dialogue beyond that. And no explanation, no Abraham saying, now, God, if you'll read in the scriptures that will be read later, they haven't been written yet, but a couple thousand years from now, they're going to be written. And in it, one of the commandments is thou shall not kill. And I just thought that maybe you and I could have a discussion about this. I feel like maybe, you know, I need a different HR manager. I mean, I mean that you don't have any of that. Now, I don't know that that didn't happen, but I, you have Abraham asked to give up the thing that matters more to him than anything else in the world. You have Jesus who's going to suffer for all the sins, all the iniquities, all the difficulties of the world.
Gerrit The only reason he has a son is because of a miracle that God wrought upon him. And now that same God is saying that he needs to sacrifice that same son. There doesn't seem to be any dialogue beyond that. And no explanation, no Abraham saying, now, God, if you'll read in the scriptures that will be read later, they haven't been written yet, but a couple thousand years from now, they're going to be written. And in it, one of the commandments is thou shall not kill. And I just thought that maybe you and I could have a discussion about this. I feel like maybe, you know, I need a different HR manager. I mean, I mean that you don't have any of that. Now, I don't know that that didn't happen, but I, you have Abraham asked to give up the thing that matters more to him than anything else in the world. You have Jesus who's going to suffer for all the sins, all the iniquities, all the difficulties of the world.
Gerrit And then you have other people who are unwilling to sacrifice anything for the church. That, I will go to church as long as it's comfortable. I'll go to church as long as the speakers are always the kind of speakers I like. I'll go to church as long as, you know, I don't ever hear anything taught over the pulpit or in my classes that offends me or bothers me and I'll go to church as long as I feel like no one's ever judging me. We put all kinds of stakes up saying, I will believe as long as you tell me things that I already believe. As long as what you reveal is stuff I've read 10,000 times, then I'm in. But as Joseph would later say in another sermon, that it's almost impossible to teach the people because they fly apart like glass when they learn something, when they hear something that they haven't heard before.
Gerrit And then you have other people who are unwilling to sacrifice anything for the church. That, I will go to church as long as it's comfortable. I'll go to church as long as the speakers are always the kind of speakers I like. I'll go to church as long as, you know, I don't ever hear anything taught over the pulpit or in my classes that offends me or bothers me and I'll go to church as long as I feel like no one's ever judging me. We put all kinds of stakes up saying, I will believe as long as you tell me things that I already believe. As long as what you reveal is stuff I've read 10,000 times, then I'm in. But as Joseph would later say in another sermon, that it's almost impossible to teach the people because they fly apart like glass when they learn something, when they hear something that they haven't heard before.
Gerrit So it's important as a mindset going at even discussing the King Follett Sermon is that first of all, this is going to be doctrine that really isn't fully revealed other places, although you have many places where that in both scripture and in Joseph's sermons that are pointing towards this idea that the purpose of our existence is to become like God. It's not the reward you get if you somehow make it through this life and make it to the celestial kingdom. It's certainly that, but that's actually not the point. The reason why the world was created was so that the children of God could become like God. It's not ancillary to the creation of the world. It's not the parting gift that you go home with if you just so happen to make it through this cesspool of tears and suffering. It's the entire point, the reason why you're here.
Gerrit So it's important as a mindset going at even discussing the King Follett Sermon is that first of all, this is going to be doctrine that really isn't fully revealed other places, although you have many places where that in both scripture and in Joseph's sermons that are pointing towards this idea that the purpose of our existence is to become like God. It's not the reward you get if you somehow make it through this life and make it to the celestial kingdom. It's certainly that, but that's actually not the point. The reason why the world was created was so that the children of God could become like God. It's not ancillary to the creation of the world. It's not the parting gift that you go home with if you just so happen to make it through this cesspool of tears and suffering. It's the entire point, the reason why you're here.
Gerrit The reason why you decided in the pre-mortal life to follow God's plan. And in the very fact that you are walking around means you decided that. You accepted God's plan even though you knew how much suffering would be entailed. Well let's turn to, it's going to take us several podcasts to get through all of the King Follett sermon. Now, there are multiple versions of the King Follett sermon. Not only were there multiple contemporary recordings of it made when Joseph gave it, there were also, there was also a published version of it that was published in the Times and Seasons newspaper by the church shortly thereafter. There are some discrepancies between the different versions. There are some that are more complete than others. One version is just a few lines, the others are much longer. I'm going to be primarily using Wilford Woodruff's account of the sermon that comes from his journal.
Gerrit The reason why you decided in the pre-mortal life to follow God's plan. And in the very fact that you are walking around means you decided that. You accepted God's plan even though you knew how much suffering would be entailed. Well let's turn to, it's going to take us several podcasts to get through all of the King Follett sermon. Now, there are multiple versions of the King Follett sermon. Not only were there multiple contemporary recordings of it made when Joseph gave it, there were also, there was also a published version of it that was published in the Times and Seasons newspaper by the church shortly thereafter. There are some discrepancies between the different versions. There are some that are more complete than others. One version is just a few lines, the others are much longer. I'm going to be primarily using Wilford Woodruff's account of the sermon that comes from his journal.
Gerrit So I'll be primarily doing that as we go through it. Who is Elder King Follett? Well, he is a young Latter-day Saint husband and father who is digging a well, and some rocks collapse on him and kill him. And so it's a very tragic death. As Joseph is speaking at this funeral, this is a very tragic thing. This is not an 80-year-old who slowly slipped into death in their sleep. This is a young man who's leaving kids and a family behind. And so when Joseph gives that sermon, it's important to note, you have a lot of really, really broken up people in the audience. You have a lot of people, especially friends and family, who perhaps are saying in their minds at least, how could God let this happen?
Gerrit So I'll be primarily doing that as we go through it. Who is Elder King Follett? Well, he is a young Latter-day Saint husband and father who is digging a well, and some rocks collapse on him and kill him. And so it's a very tragic death. As Joseph is speaking at this funeral, this is a very tragic thing. This is not an 80-year-old who slowly slipped into death in their sleep. This is a young man who's leaving kids and a family behind. And so when Joseph gives that sermon, it's important to note, you have a lot of really, really broken up people in the audience. You have a lot of people, especially friends and family, who perhaps are saying in their minds at least, how could God let this happen?
Gerrit King Follett was a very faithful member of the church. I mean, he joins the church and follows the church through all of its various travails and difficulties. He's not someone who is on the out, some kind of sinner or something being punished by God. And that's why rocks fell on him. I mean, he is a good man. And all of a sudden in an instant, it's from happiness and gaiety to he's dead. You've lost, you've lost this man rather than than having him anymore in the future. And so this is a very solemn and tragic funeral. Now, as I've already expressed, some people feel relatively uncomfortable with the things that are taught in the King Follett Sermon. And I think that's because it is the most radical teachings that Joseph Smith gives. And it's difficult to make all of the pieces that Joseph reveals in this sermon to fit with some of our existing mindset of how we've thought about this life and how we've thought about heaven and how we've thought about God and how we've thought about the atonement.
Gerrit King Follett was a very faithful member of the church. I mean, he joins the church and follows the church through all of its various travails and difficulties. He's not someone who is on the out, some kind of sinner or something being punished by God. And that's why rocks fell on him. I mean, he is a good man. And all of a sudden in an instant, it's from happiness and gaiety to he's dead. You've lost, you've lost this man rather than than having him anymore in the future. And so this is a very solemn and tragic funeral. Now, as I've already expressed, some people feel relatively uncomfortable with the things that are taught in the King Follett Sermon. And I think that's because it is the most radical teachings that Joseph Smith gives. And it's difficult to make all of the pieces that Joseph reveals in this sermon to fit with some of our existing mindset of how we've thought about this life and how we've thought about heaven and how we've thought about God and how we've thought about the atonement.
Gerrit Multiple times I've been in situations where people were uncomfortable with the content of the King Follett Sermon, have attempted to try to wave it away, kind of like we did in a previous podcast, the White Horse Prophecy, that, well, we don't even have good, we don't have good sources on this and we don't even know if this was even said and this was many years later. And again, I understand what the impulse is. The impulse is, I don't really understand this. So I'm just going to say that there's no way Joseph said it. The problem is, among Joseph's sermons, it is by far one of the most well recorded. Does that mean that every person recording it didn't make any mistakes? No, of course it doesn't mean that. Anyone who's transcribing any sermon makes some mistake, period and end of story.
Gerrit Multiple times I've been in situations where people were uncomfortable with the content of the King Follett Sermon, have attempted to try to wave it away, kind of like we did in a previous podcast, the White Horse Prophecy, that, well, we don't even have good, we don't have good sources on this and we don't even know if this was even said and this was many years later. And again, I understand what the impulse is. The impulse is, I don't really understand this. So I'm just going to say that there's no way Joseph said it. The problem is, among Joseph's sermons, it is by far one of the most well recorded. Does that mean that every person recording it didn't make any mistakes? No, of course it doesn't mean that. Anyone who's transcribing any sermon makes some mistake, period and end of story.
Gerrit But I think when people bring that, when they raise that specter, what they're really trying to say is, there are a lot of things in here that I'm not comfortable with. And so if I say that Joseph didn't really say them, then I don't have to actually work through the discomfort. Unfortunately, while that might be a comforting way of viewing the sermon, it's certainly not an academic way of viewing the sermon. We have multiple different accounts of this sermon. And as I said, one that is then published in the church's newspaper, that's kind of a conglomeration of several accounts that must have been getting sources from other people. So while we might not fully understand, well, okay, we don't fully understand. It's not even a might not. We don't fully understand what Joseph is saying in the sermon or what the meaning of it is. It's not a very accurate statement to claim, well, you know, we don't really know what Joseph said.
Gerrit But I think when people bring that, when they raise that specter, what they're really trying to say is, there are a lot of things in here that I'm not comfortable with. And so if I say that Joseph didn't really say them, then I don't have to actually work through the discomfort. Unfortunately, while that might be a comforting way of viewing the sermon, it's certainly not an academic way of viewing the sermon. We have multiple different accounts of this sermon. And as I said, one that is then published in the church's newspaper, that's kind of a conglomeration of several accounts that must have been getting sources from other people. So while we might not fully understand, well, okay, we don't fully understand. It's not even a might not. We don't fully understand what Joseph is saying in the sermon or what the meaning of it is. It's not a very accurate statement to claim, well, you know, we don't really know what Joseph said.
Gerrit The reality is it's fairly clear what Joseph is talking about because there are various sources that we have. Many of them are corroborated by even other sources, like we just read some of them talking about mankind becoming like God or even Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. So while we might not feel 100% comfortable with some of these things because they're mind blowing in that degree, this is not one of those cases where we just have no idea whether or not Joseph gave a sermon on this topic. Someone 50 years later said, Oh yeah, I remember Joseph gave a sermon on resurrection. In which case, a historian might say, well Joseph might and he might not have, but how would I know since he's reminiscing 50 years earlier? These are fairly contemporary, very shortly thereafter being recorded into people's journals and other records. Again, does that mean that they're 100% accurate? Of course not.
Gerrit The reality is it's fairly clear what Joseph is talking about because there are various sources that we have. Many of them are corroborated by even other sources, like we just read some of them talking about mankind becoming like God or even Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. So while we might not feel 100% comfortable with some of these things because they're mind blowing in that degree, this is not one of those cases where we just have no idea whether or not Joseph gave a sermon on this topic. Someone 50 years later said, Oh yeah, I remember Joseph gave a sermon on resurrection. In which case, a historian might say, well Joseph might and he might not have, but how would I know since he's reminiscing 50 years earlier? These are fairly contemporary, very shortly thereafter being recorded into people's journals and other records. Again, does that mean that they're 100% accurate? Of course not.
Gerrit They are not. They can't be. At the same time, if what you're looking for is to dismiss what Joseph teaches in the King Follett Sermon as not being accurate because you don't want to have to deal with the implications of what he's teaching, well that's not a very academic approach to take to it. Non-Latter-day Saint historians would verify that this is what Joseph Smith is in fact saying. We may not understand what he's saying, but that's a very different problem than saying that he never said it in the first place. It's one of the problems with sources. I mean, with the work that LeJean Carruth and I did on transcribing the original shorthand notes that make up many of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses, one of the things we found was that there was considerable editing that was being done, not by the speaker.
Gerrit They are not. They can't be. At the same time, if what you're looking for is to dismiss what Joseph teaches in the King Follett Sermon as not being accurate because you don't want to have to deal with the implications of what he's teaching, well that's not a very academic approach to take to it. Non-Latter-day Saint historians would verify that this is what Joseph Smith is in fact saying. We may not understand what he's saying, but that's a very different problem than saying that he never said it in the first place. It's one of the problems with sources. I mean, with the work that LeJean Carruth and I did on transcribing the original shorthand notes that make up many of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses, one of the things we found was that there was considerable editing that was being done, not by the speaker.
Gerrit There was considerable editing that was being done by the transcriber when they transcribed their notes into the actual sermon in longhand. And so, that itself was, it was a surprise to me when I did it, but it was also a big surprise to other Latter-day Saints who had always thought, well, you know, when I read a sermon in the Journal of Discourses, that must be word-for-word, you know, because they're thinking of a conference report, right? Well, it's pretty easy to get word-for-word today. You can just keep replaying it and copying it down until you get it right, and you can always verify it if there's a question. These men are speaking extemporaneously almost entirely, usually without any notes, sometimes with the scriptures, and the only way it could be captured at all is people writing it down in shorthand. And sometimes, many of the times that we looked at, those notes that were created were changed by the transcriber, men like Watt, who wanted to make them sound better, wanted to edit for content or time before it was published, but made a lot of changes.
Gerrit There was considerable editing that was being done by the transcriber when they transcribed their notes into the actual sermon in longhand. And so, that itself was, it was a surprise to me when I did it, but it was also a big surprise to other Latter-day Saints who had always thought, well, you know, when I read a sermon in the Journal of Discourses, that must be word-for-word, you know, because they're thinking of a conference report, right? Well, it's pretty easy to get word-for-word today. You can just keep replaying it and copying it down until you get it right, and you can always verify it if there's a question. These men are speaking extemporaneously almost entirely, usually without any notes, sometimes with the scriptures, and the only way it could be captured at all is people writing it down in shorthand. And sometimes, many of the times that we looked at, those notes that were created were changed by the transcriber, men like Watt, who wanted to make them sound better, wanted to edit for content or time before it was published, but made a lot of changes.
Gerrit We don't have that sense here. The reality is, we probably need to deal with what it is that Joseph is recorded to have said. If you don't feel comfortable with it, if you feel like, well, I don't understand any of this, that's fine, that Joseph said you won't understand it till after this life, so welcome to everyone, if you feel like that. But at the same time, I think it is important to try to wrestle with it, because it is such a profound teaching of Joseph Smith. And again, I'm gonna be using primarily the Wilford Woodruff version of this, and if I switch and go to another version, I'll let you know for the most part, or probably I'll just try to sneak it in there. Maybe you're gonna track this down, and a little bit of homework on your part. Woodruff notes in his journal that, this is how he introduces it. The following important, edifying, and interesting discourse was delivered by President Joseph Smith to about, he wrote at first 20,000 souls, but then he has 20 crossed out, and 10,000 souls is inserted.
Gerrit We don't have that sense here. The reality is, we probably need to deal with what it is that Joseph is recorded to have said. If you don't feel comfortable with it, if you feel like, well, I don't understand any of this, that's fine, that Joseph said you won't understand it till after this life, so welcome to everyone, if you feel like that. But at the same time, I think it is important to try to wrestle with it, because it is such a profound teaching of Joseph Smith. And again, I'm gonna be using primarily the Wilford Woodruff version of this, and if I switch and go to another version, I'll let you know for the most part, or probably I'll just try to sneak it in there. Maybe you're gonna track this down, and a little bit of homework on your part. Woodruff notes in his journal that, this is how he introduces it. The following important, edifying, and interesting discourse was delivered by President Joseph Smith to about, he wrote at first 20,000 souls, but then he has 20 crossed out, and 10,000 souls is inserted.
Gerrit So this is a very, this is a huge congregation. Whether there's 10,000 or 20,000, even if there's 5,000, that would be this massive, massive gathering of saints. Was delivered by President Joseph Smith upon the subject of the death of Elder King Follett. And then begins his recording of what Joseph taught. I now call the attention of this congregation. While I address you upon the subject of the dead, the case of our beloved brother King Follett, who was crushed to death in a well, as well as many others who have lost friends, will be had in mind this afternoon, and shall speak upon the subject in general, as far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to treat upon the subject. I want the prayers and the faith of the saints, that I may have the Holy Ghost, that the testimony may carry conviction to your minds of the truth of what I shall say.
Gerrit So this is a very, this is a huge congregation. Whether there's 10,000 or 20,000, even if there's 5,000, that would be this massive, massive gathering of saints. Was delivered by President Joseph Smith upon the subject of the death of Elder King Follett. And then begins his recording of what Joseph taught. I now call the attention of this congregation. While I address you upon the subject of the dead, the case of our beloved brother King Follett, who was crushed to death in a well, as well as many others who have lost friends, will be had in mind this afternoon, and shall speak upon the subject in general, as far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to treat upon the subject. I want the prayers and the faith of the saints, that I may have the Holy Ghost, that the testimony may carry conviction to your minds of the truth of what I shall say.
Gerrit And, pray that the Lord may strengthen my lungs. There is strength here. Your prayers will be heard. Before I enter upon an investigation of this subject, I wish to pave the way and bring up the subject from the beginning, that you may understand. I do not intend to please you with oratory, but with the simple truths of heaven edify you. Go to the morning of creation to understand the decrees of Elohim at creation. It is necessary for us to have an understanding of God at the beginning. If we get a good start first, we can go right, but if you start wrong, you may go wrong. But few understand the character of God. They do not know that they do not understand their relationship with God. The world know no more than a brute beast, and they know no more than to eat and to drink and to sleep.
Gerrit And, pray that the Lord may strengthen my lungs. There is strength here. Your prayers will be heard. Before I enter upon an investigation of this subject, I wish to pave the way and bring up the subject from the beginning, that you may understand. I do not intend to please you with oratory, but with the simple truths of heaven edify you. Go to the morning of creation to understand the decrees of Elohim at creation. It is necessary for us to have an understanding of God at the beginning. If we get a good start first, we can go right, but if you start wrong, you may go wrong. But few understand the character of God. They do not know that they do not understand their relationship with God. The world know no more than a brute beast, and they know no more than to eat and to drink and to sleep.
Gerrit And this is all man knows about God or his existence. So first of all, one of the, one of the things Joseph is coming out of the gate firing, is people think they know who God is, and they don't. In fact, making the comparison that they know so little about God, they're similar to animals in knowing so little about God.
Gerrit And this is all man knows about God or his existence. So first of all, one of the, one of the things Joseph is coming out of the gate firing, is people think they know who God is, and they don't. In fact, making the comparison that they know so little about God, they're similar to animals in knowing so little about God.
Richard When Joseph Smith prepares for a large address like this, does, do we have record of him kind of contemplating through and writing things down or does he, what's the process by which he enters it?
Richard When Joseph Smith prepares for a large address like this, does, do we have record of him kind of contemplating through and writing things down or does he, what's the process by which he enters it?
Gerrit Very little record of any prepared sermon. The idea of the bishop asked me to speak on charity, so I spent the last three weeks looking it up on churchofjesuschrist.org is that's a modern function of the way people spoke. In fact, many times people were asked to speak completely unawares. I mean, you could read the journals of some of these people and they show up at a meeting and I was asked to speak on the subject of the resurrection. So it's not just, hey, I don't have my notes with me. I haven't even been contemplating the idea of resurrection. I've been studying this without my notes. And they generally get up to speak with the spirit, which is exactly what Joseph seems to be doing here. Now, he's clearly bothered by the fact that Follett has died and that this is such a tragedy. But we don't know how long he spent thinking about this, talking about this.
Gerrit Very little record of any prepared sermon. The idea of the bishop asked me to speak on charity, so I spent the last three weeks looking it up on churchofjesuschrist.org is that's a modern function of the way people spoke. In fact, many times people were asked to speak completely unawares. I mean, you could read the journals of some of these people and they show up at a meeting and I was asked to speak on the subject of the resurrection. So it's not just, hey, I don't have my notes with me. I haven't even been contemplating the idea of resurrection. I've been studying this without my notes. And they generally get up to speak with the spirit, which is exactly what Joseph seems to be doing here. Now, he's clearly bothered by the fact that Follett has died and that this is such a tragedy. But we don't know how long he spent thinking about this, talking about this.
Gerrit As I said, it seems like he uses funeral sermons as a way of expounding upon very difficult and deeper doctrines. Two parts for that. I think one of them is because the people gathered are all thinking about God. They're all thinking about the next life. They're all thinking about the fact that this, their brother, their friend, their sister, their mother is gone from them. And it's when you lose someone that you love, that what happens in the next life suddenly becomes very, very, very important to you. It's no longer a casual belief because I need certain things to be true or I won't have my loved one again. So I think that part of what he, why it happens is that he's trying to find a way to share these things that he's already had revealed to him. He's not saying, hey, I just had this revealed to me right now.
Gerrit As I said, it seems like he uses funeral sermons as a way of expounding upon very difficult and deeper doctrines. Two parts for that. I think one of them is because the people gathered are all thinking about God. They're all thinking about the next life. They're all thinking about the fact that this, their brother, their friend, their sister, their mother is gone from them. And it's when you lose someone that you love, that what happens in the next life suddenly becomes very, very, very important to you. It's no longer a casual belief because I need certain things to be true or I won't have my loved one again. So I think that part of what he, why it happens is that he's trying to find a way to share these things that he's already had revealed to him. He's not saying, hey, I just had this revealed to me right now.
Gerrit He is expressing it to people when they are essentially at their most receptive point. They are thinking about God and the afterlife at a funeral more than they ever are thinking about God in the afterlife. The second part of that is he, Joseph even explains, just like he did with that Higbee sermon, funeral sermon that we just read. It's to the consolation of the people that mourn that you teach them the truths about who we are and what we are and why we're here and why death even has any claim on anyone. For Joseph, if you understand God, if you understand who you really are, then while you will be pained by the loss of someone you love when they're taken from you, you won't ever be in despair because you'll understand that not only is their death part of God's plan, their life and death on this earth is actually the entire point of creation.
Gerrit He is expressing it to people when they are essentially at their most receptive point. They are thinking about God and the afterlife at a funeral more than they ever are thinking about God in the afterlife. The second part of that is he, Joseph even explains, just like he did with that Higbee sermon, funeral sermon that we just read. It's to the consolation of the people that mourn that you teach them the truths about who we are and what we are and why we're here and why death even has any claim on anyone. For Joseph, if you understand God, if you understand who you really are, then while you will be pained by the loss of someone you love when they're taken from you, you won't ever be in despair because you'll understand that not only is their death part of God's plan, their life and death on this earth is actually the entire point of creation.
Gerrit It's not incident to creation. It's not just because Adam and Eve ate some apples they shouldn't have and now death is in the world. The entire point of creation is to have this life and die so that you can progress to become like God. And so I think Joseph sees true doctrine as being more comforting and consoling than anything else. I could get up and read you all kinds of funny stories about what a great guy King Follett was, but what do you really want? What do you all really want? What do you all really want is, I want to know what the afterlife is like. I want to know why we suffer. I want to know how it's possible that I'm going to see my brother, my friend, my husband again. This is, is, is I think the reason why Joseph bears so much true doctrine in these sermons, because it's the way of soothing people's pains.
Gerrit It's not incident to creation. It's not just because Adam and Eve ate some apples they shouldn't have and now death is in the world. The entire point of creation is to have this life and die so that you can progress to become like God. And so I think Joseph sees true doctrine as being more comforting and consoling than anything else. I could get up and read you all kinds of funny stories about what a great guy King Follett was, but what do you really want? What do you all really want? What do you all really want is, I want to know what the afterlife is like. I want to know why we suffer. I want to know how it's possible that I'm going to see my brother, my friend, my husband again. This is, is, is I think the reason why Joseph bears so much true doctrine in these sermons, because it's the way of soothing people's pains.
Richard One of the things that came up in one of the emails that asked that we talk about this shared about all of the loss that Joseph Smith suffered in his life and that this is a topic certainly that he would have contemplated and thought about and prayed about and sought revelation on for the past 14 years.
Richard One of the things that came up in one of the emails that asked that we talk about this shared about all of the loss that Joseph Smith suffered in his life and that this is a topic certainly that he would have contemplated and thought about and prayed about and sought revelation on for the past 14 years.
Gerrit There are two aspects to Joseph's life and character that make this topic very important to him. One is that Joseph by all the accounts we look at, is someone who just deeply loves other people. He, as I've said before, is a lover of people. He loves being around people. He loves spending time with people. He wants to help people. He wants to make people happy. He loves other people. He loves his friends the way that he loves his family. He doesn't see a distinction between that. And so at the same time that he deeply has deep personal connections with people, that they become so central to who he is as a person, he also has had all kinds of tragedy both personally and among his friends as far as untimely deaths that have taken place.
Gerrit There are two aspects to Joseph's life and character that make this topic very important to him. One is that Joseph by all the accounts we look at, is someone who just deeply loves other people. He, as I've said before, is a lover of people. He loves being around people. He loves spending time with people. He wants to help people. He wants to make people happy. He loves other people. He loves his friends the way that he loves his family. He doesn't see a distinction between that. And so at the same time that he deeply has deep personal connections with people, that they become so central to who he is as a person, he also has had all kinds of tragedy both personally and among his friends as far as untimely deaths that have taken place.
Gerrit So you have someone who cares very deeply on a very emotional level for other people, and many of those people are passing away in an earlier fashion than you would expect. I mean, so for instance, Joseph himself, we've talked about this, but his, while he's translating the gold plates, their first child, he and Emma, their first child, while Joseph and her have given up everything for God, their first child is born and dies at birth. So, their relationship to each other and to God begins in the agony of burying this child. And then they have to give up everything again, and they move to Ohio, and there, Emma gives birth to twins who both die.
Gerrit So you have someone who cares very deeply on a very emotional level for other people, and many of those people are passing away in an earlier fashion than you would expect. I mean, so for instance, Joseph himself, we've talked about this, but his, while he's translating the gold plates, their first child, he and Emma, their first child, while Joseph and her have given up everything for God, their first child is born and dies at birth. So, their relationship to each other and to God begins in the agony of burying this child. And then they have to give up everything again, and they move to Ohio, and there, Emma gives birth to twins who both die.
Gerrit Joseph is four years into the church, four years into his devoted sacrifice, suffering and help of trying to help God's kingdom be established on earth. And he doesn't even have his own child yet that survived. This pain of suffering is just, it's intense. And Joseph, of course, felt it even earlier. He had a very close connection with his brother Alvin. And with Alvin, he, when Alvin dies, Joseph is, is, is just left without this second father figure that he thought he had. And Alvin's death is just clearly something that weighs heavily on Joseph all throughout his life, to the point where it's actually driving some of his questions that lead to the very revelations that help us understand about the next life. And, and even in Nauvoo, while they're finally have some of their own children, they're finally, they're finally able to, to live the kind of life they were hoping to have.
Gerrit Joseph is four years into the church, four years into his devoted sacrifice, suffering and help of trying to help God's kingdom be established on earth. And he doesn't even have his own child yet that survived. This pain of suffering is just, it's intense. And Joseph, of course, felt it even earlier. He had a very close connection with his brother Alvin. And with Alvin, he, when Alvin dies, Joseph is, is, is just left without this second father figure that he thought he had. And Alvin's death is just clearly something that weighs heavily on Joseph all throughout his life, to the point where it's actually driving some of his questions that lead to the very revelations that help us understand about the next life. And, and even in Nauvoo, while they're finally have some of their own children, they're finally, they're finally able to, to live the kind of life they were hoping to have.
Gerrit As far as that regard, as far as being able to raise children. Even then, Joseph is going to have his 14 month old son, Don Carlos die in 1841. At the same time, he's going to have his brother, Don Carlos die, his youngest brother. So, Joseph is losing family members. He's already lost his father, who he's obviously very close to. And so, look, everyone has family members die. Not everyone who's under the age of 45 has had multiple siblings pass away, as well as multiple children pass away over the course of a decade. That, you know, people do have a higher incident of mortality in the 19th century. And there are certainly people who suffer far more than Joseph in that regard. But that is not a, it is an atypical thing in the sense that so many people in his personal family and in his extended family have died young and untimely deaths.
Gerrit As far as that regard, as far as being able to raise children. Even then, Joseph is going to have his 14 month old son, Don Carlos die in 1841. At the same time, he's going to have his brother, Don Carlos die, his youngest brother. So, Joseph is losing family members. He's already lost his father, who he's obviously very close to. And so, look, everyone has family members die. Not everyone who's under the age of 45 has had multiple siblings pass away, as well as multiple children pass away over the course of a decade. That, you know, people do have a higher incident of mortality in the 19th century. And there are certainly people who suffer far more than Joseph in that regard. But that is not a, it is an atypical thing in the sense that so many people in his personal family and in his extended family have died young and untimely deaths.
Gerrit He is very well acquainted with this. And it is one of the things that God speaks to when the first saints first go to Missouri. One of those faithful saints, Pauline Knight is going to die on the way or shortly after they get there. And it is devastating to the Knight family. And God is going to speak to the fact that the righteous who die, they die in the Lord. And they are taken home to that God who loves them. So Joseph has certainly thought about these things a great deal. And I think that in many ways, that's why this sermon is so powerful. Because when he receives the knowledge from God about the purpose of this life, it meshes together with his constant yearning and desire to have the loved ones that he has lost back and also to understand what it is God has for them in the next life.
Gerrit He is very well acquainted with this. And it is one of the things that God speaks to when the first saints first go to Missouri. One of those faithful saints, Pauline Knight is going to die on the way or shortly after they get there. And it is devastating to the Knight family. And God is going to speak to the fact that the righteous who die, they die in the Lord. And they are taken home to that God who loves them. So Joseph has certainly thought about these things a great deal. And I think that in many ways, that's why this sermon is so powerful. Because when he receives the knowledge from God about the purpose of this life, it meshes together with his constant yearning and desire to have the loved ones that he has lost back and also to understand what it is God has for them in the next life.
Richard This to me is one of the great tragedies of this sermon is this is in April of 1844. And the depth of the doctrine taught in this sermon is to the point that you've made is such that we don't even really fully understand. And to me that the great tragedy is just in a couple of months, we lose Joseph Smith. And if we just had just a little bit more, he is, he seems like he is really...
Richard This to me is one of the great tragedies of this sermon is this is in April of 1844. And the depth of the doctrine taught in this sermon is to the point that you've made is such that we don't even really fully understand. And to me that the great tragedy is just in a couple of months, we lose Joseph Smith. And if we just had just a little bit more, he is, he seems like he is really...
Gerrit He's ready to unfold the mysteries of the kingdom.
Gerrit He's ready to unfold the mysteries of the kingdom.
Richard That's what, yeah. And that's the great tragedy to me as part of this is like, boy, you're just getting just the taste here. But it seems like it's, with all these revelations that are coming, it's building, building, building, and then...
Richard That's what, yeah. And that's the great tragedy to me as part of this is like, boy, you're just getting just the taste here. But it seems like it's, with all these revelations that are coming, it's building, building, building, and then...
Gerrit And remember, this is after the apostasy of people like William Law. It's very shortly after this that he's going to, you know, establish the Nauvoo Expositor. And part of, you know, we talked about this in the Martyrdom podcast, but part of what William Law and his compatriots are going to print in that paper is that Joseph is teaching false doctrine directly related to this sermon. So it's interesting. Both Joseph and Brigham will make multiple references to the fact that they have much more they would like to reveal to the saints, but the saints actually can't handle it. They aren't prepared to receive what it is that God wants them to know. Back to the sermon, he says, that all a man knows about God or his existence is essentially what an animal knows, except what is given by the inspiration of the Almighty.
Gerrit And remember, this is after the apostasy of people like William Law. It's very shortly after this that he's going to, you know, establish the Nauvoo Expositor. And part of, you know, we talked about this in the Martyrdom podcast, but part of what William Law and his compatriots are going to print in that paper is that Joseph is teaching false doctrine directly related to this sermon. So it's interesting. Both Joseph and Brigham will make multiple references to the fact that they have much more they would like to reveal to the saints, but the saints actually can't handle it. They aren't prepared to receive what it is that God wants them to know. Back to the sermon, he says, that all a man knows about God or his existence is essentially what an animal knows, except what is given by the inspiration of the Almighty.
Gerrit Go then to the beginning. Remember, he said, you got to start at the beginning. Go then to beginning that you may understand. I ask this congregation, what kind of a being is God? Turn your thoughts and your hearts and say, have any of you seen or heard him or communed with him? This is a question that may occupy your attention. So Joseph is going to ask the congregation a question first that I think is actually a good question for all of us to contemplate for the next week before we give the remainder of the sermon, or at least more of it. What kind of a being is God? Doctrine and Coven, Section 93 elevated the status of humankind by stating that we were also in the beginning with God. But what kind of a being is God? What kind of a being?
Gerrit Go then to the beginning. Remember, he said, you got to start at the beginning. Go then to beginning that you may understand. I ask this congregation, what kind of a being is God? Turn your thoughts and your hearts and say, have any of you seen or heard him or communed with him? This is a question that may occupy your attention. So Joseph is going to ask the congregation a question first that I think is actually a good question for all of us to contemplate for the next week before we give the remainder of the sermon, or at least more of it. What kind of a being is God? Doctrine and Coven, Section 93 elevated the status of humankind by stating that we were also in the beginning with God. But what kind of a being is God? What kind of a being?
Gerrit So think about that as you contemplate these things. Who is your Heavenly Father? And what is your relationship to him? And your relationship to your purpose on this earth? Thank you so much for joining us this week. We will pick it up again next week. Stay tuned. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Gerrit So think about that as you contemplate these things. Who is your Heavenly Father? And what is your relationship to him? And your relationship to your purpose on this earth? Thank you so much for joining us this week. We will pick it up again next week. Stay tuned. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineSo this is like from the lost tracks from your favorite band, only if it was a band that you didn't like and didn't want any of their lost tracks.
I remember going and talking to my dad and saying, Dad, this says we're going to become gods. My dad's response was, well, not unless you start acting better
Christians believe that you have to accept Jesus in order to be saved. And then Joseph Smith teaches, except when you don't, which is most of the time.
I feel like maybe, you know, I need a different HR manager.
We put all kinds of stakes up saying, I will believe as long as you tell me things that I already believe.
It's not the parting gift that you go home with if you just so happen to make it through this cesspool of tears and suffering. It's the entire point, the reason why you're here.
We may not understand what he's saying, but that's a very different problem than saying that he never said it in the first place.
They are thinking about God and the afterlife at a funeral more than they ever are thinking about God in the afterlife.
And to me that the great tragedy is just in a couple of months, we lose Joseph Smith.
Source shelf
18 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersrevelation
D&C 93
Gerrit calls the King Follett sermon a logical extension of D&C 93, D&C 76 and Moses 1.
revelation
D&C 132
Where a teenage Gerrit first read that the exalted are gods, and asked his dad about it.
sermon
Joseph Smith, funeral sermon for Seymour Brunson (1840)
Where Joseph first taught baptism for the dead.
journal
Joseph Smith, funeral sermon for Elias Higbee, August 13, 1843, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray
there is a thought more dreadful than that of total annihilation. That is a thought that we shall never meet with those and meet again with those we loved here on earth.
Joseph says never meeting loved ones again is worse than ceasing to exist.
scripture
Hebrews 12:22
You have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly of the Church of the Firstborn.
Quoted by Joseph in the Higbee sermon.
scripture
Malachi 4
Behold, the day cometh, and that shall burn as an oven.
Joseph paraphrases Malachi on Elijah and the covenants of fathers and children.
scripture
Revelation 7:2-3
Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Joseph asks who knows the seal of the living God.
sermon
Joseph Smith, sermon of August 27, 1843, on the priesthoods of Levi, Abraham and Melchizedek
Abraham's priesthood was of a greater power than Levi's, and Melchizedek's was of a greater power than Abraham.
Gerrit reads it for 'men will set up stakes' and the purpose of creating man.
sermon
Joseph Smith, August 27, 1843 (continued)
men will set up stakes and say, thus far will we go and go no further.
People draw lines in the sand and tell God how far they'll go.
sermon
Joseph Smith, August 27, 1843 (continued)
What was the design of the Almighty in making man? It was to exalt him to be as God.
Gerrit says Joseph is as direct as he can be about why humankind exists.
scripture
Matthew 26:39
if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, thy will be done.
Joseph cites the Savior in Gethsemane submitting to the Father's will.
scripture
Moses 1:39
It is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Gerrit ties Joseph's teaching to the 1830 revelation of Moses 1.
other
White Horse Prophecy
Gerrit contrasts this late, weakly sourced prophecy with the well-recorded King Follett sermon.
record
Journal of Discourses shorthand transcriptions (Gerrit's work with LaJean Carruth)
Their work showed that transcribers, men like Watt, often edited sermons when converting shorthand to longhand.
newspaper
Times and Seasons, published version of the King Follett sermon
A conglomeration of several accounts printed by the church shortly after the sermon.
journal
Wilford Woodruff's journal, King Follett sermon, April 1844
I now call the attention of this congregation. While I address you upon the subject of the dead
Gerrit's main source; Woodruff wrote 20,000 souls, crossed out the 20 and inserted 10,000.
journal
Wilford Woodruff's journal, King Follett sermon (continued)
I ask this congregation, what kind of a being is God?
Joseph's opening question, which Gerrit leaves listeners to ponder until next week.
revelation
Revelation given after Polly Knight's death in Missouri (not cited by number on air)
Said on air as 'Pauline Knight'; she is usually known as Polly Knight. God speaks of the righteous who die in the Lord.
Episode quiz
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When was this episode originally recorded?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript59:29long
5.4 minbefore the topic starts
18sources read or named
8scripture passages
4different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1830 to 1844
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 8,714 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Death and the afterlife43 mentions, 3.3 times the show’s usual rate
- Family and marriage25 mentions, 1.5 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 76Jesus Christ 12Wilford Woodruff 3Emma Smith 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Higbee 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundWe don't really know what Joseph said in the King Follett sermon, so we can set it aside.
Sermons in the Journal of Discourses are word-for-word transcripts.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textJoseph taught that the purpose of creation is for God's children to become like Him; it's the entire point, not a parting gift.
Joseph warned against 'setting up stakes,' deciding in advance how far we'll let God teach us, and pointed to Abraham and the Savior, who held nothing back.
Joseph gave some of his deepest doctrine at funerals, because that's when people are most ready to hear about God and the afterlife.
Joseph knew grief from losing children and his brother Alvin, which helps explain why he cared so deeply about reunion after death.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadFrom the dark and dusty filesGerrit opens a shelved 2022 recording from the archive (0:01).
Doctor inflation2022 Richard was 'barely adjunct Professor LeDuc,' unlike today's Dr. Richard LeDuc (1:17).
Dominic the DonkeyListeners wrote in to say they don't love it as much as Gerrit does (2:00).
The 38-parterRichard asks if it's a three-parter; Gerrit says 38, since Joseph said it'd take until after death to understand (7:22, 7:24).
Aseity'The aseity of God we once talked about when everyone stopped listening' (8:25).
Not unless you start acting betterGerrit's dad's reply to learning we can become gods, and Richard adds the dishes (9:27, 10:16).
Still downloadingListeners still trying to get the D&C 93 episode to play on whatever Zoom they're using (11:32).
Abraham's HR managerGerrit imagines Abraham asking for a discussion about 'thou shalt not kill' (29:39).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airOctober 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 132Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.October 2026 General Conference · cites Moses 1:39God Is at Your SideSister Andrea Muñoz SpannausSpeaking to young women, Sister Muñoz Spannaus recalls making a list of aspirations as a girl after studying the 13th article of faith, and likens the Lord to a guide who knows our exact location, as her husband did when her GPS failed.
Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardCompare the multiple contemporary accounts of the King Follett sermon with the version printed in the Times and Seasons (32:48).
Joseph's other funeral sermons, from Seymour Brunson to Elias Higbee, and what each one revealed (13:46).
The Journal of Discourses shorthand project, and how transcribers changed sermons on the way to print (40:25).
Why the Nauvoo Expositor attacked Joseph's teachings from this period (56:40).
D&C 93 and the idea that we were also in the beginning with God (57:41).
SOT Litner · S6E22.