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S6E35 · The Great Apostate Hall of Shame - #8 Ezra Booth Part 5 (FINAL)
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Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 35 · 1:07:56

The Great Apostate Hall of Shame - #8 Ezra Booth Part 5 (FINAL)

Booth's attacks were serious enough that in December 1831 the Lord sent Joseph and Sidney Rigdon on a mission to answer them, and D&C 71 told them to 'confound your enemies' in public and in private.

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The question ·

How did Ezra Booth's apostasy affect the Church, and what finally became of his letters?

Richard

Richard, whose family staged an intervention over his baggy shirts, reads notes from missionary families and from Jessica, who says the podcast taught her how much we trust whatever we hear, and from Chantel, who lists the Seahawks for the Super Bowl. Then Gerrit wraps up Ezra Booth. Booth calls Sidney Rigdon an exaggerator, insists only Joseph could give written revelations, and paints the Missouri trip as a con. His letters stirred enough trouble that D&C 71 sent Joseph and Sidney out to answer critics, and Sidney publicly challenged Booth to debate. Eber D. Howe later reprinted the letters in his famous anti-Mormon book. Gerrit closes with a warning: deception usually comes through people we want to believe, teaching things we want to hear.

Who comes upEzra BoothSidney RigdonJoseph SmithEber D. HoweAlexander CampbellElsa JohnsonDenver Snuffer
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Dr. Gerrit LeDuc

A Google mix-up merges the hosts, and Richard's family stages an intervention over his baggy clothes.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. I don't know if you saw this on Google. When you Google the podcast, it's Dr. Gerrit LeDuc, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat.
Gerrit No, that's the best. Nope, that's it. That's the end of the story. It goes Dr. Gerrit LeDuc.
Richard I'm joined by something like Robert Sawyer or something like that. I'm not a doctor. It's not any of my names. It's great. Really? Yeah, it's very, very funny.
Gerrit I suppose if we could have one of your sons, Mary Onika, we could have a Dr. Gerrit LeDuc.
Richard Yeah, we could have a Dr. Gerrit LeDuc. It's very funny.
Gerrit See what Max thinks about that.
Richard I'll have to send you the screenshot, but it was very funny. I can't remember the exact name. It was hilarious. I wasn't offended by the name being incorrect. I don't remember my own name, but it's the doctor. That's the one that hurts. I want you to know we're in full missionary season, Gerrit. I don't think that anyone has attended their own home ward in three months, either farewells or homecomings or whatever it is. But I want you to know that I'm in solidarity with many people serving missions right now. I haven't showered for a couple of days and my son Rigdon.
Gerrit So now everyone's happy that it's not only not a video medium, it's also not one that has the sense of smell as well.
Richard We're working on smell-o-vision. Yeah, we are working on that.
Gerrit Just like Willy Wonka.
Richard The schnazberries taste like schnazberries. So Rigdon in Peru, I think that the number of warm showers that he had could be counted on one hand after a 4th of July accident. But our water heater has gone out and so I apologize. I know this is an audio medium here, but I look at...
Gerrit But he looks terrible, folks. If we could screenshot the way he looks, apparently it's more than just not showering. He was just telling me in our pre-show, someday we'll record our pre-show, but then we have to edit the pre-show.
Richard Yeah, the pre-show is the best part.
Gerrit We'll release the pre-show as a Sioux premium. It's not just premium, it's Sioux premium. You have to, it's essentially, we'll call it the Kim Jong-un level of, you have to be the Sioux premium. But in it, Richard was just regaling me about how his family sat him down and said that they needed to have an intervention. Now you think, well, what drug is Richard doing?
Intro Yes, so many drugs.
Gerrit Is Richard an alcoholic? Is Richard, perhaps Richard's gaming too much? What is the intervention that Richard's family decided to have with him? Richard, what was the intervention?
Richard That I look sloppy. I wear baggy clothes. I look homeless. I look bad. And I recently took a new job where I'll be working with the international company, and I'm going to be doing some additional consulting work on sales process sundry things. And we just lost half of our listeners. Well, my wife, my wife said, you know, hey, I really think this is an opportunity for you to wear some clothes that fit and look nice. And I'm like, I think I look good. And then the entire, it was a family night, actually. It got away from me. And you're supposed to raise your hand when you have an announcement. But the whole thing, you know, this is how I feel because you look like a slob and how it affected my life.
Gerrit The way I envision this is, is your daughter opening up a letter that's handwritten and saying, Dad, it's affected me in these many, in these different ways. When you wear t-shirts that are triple extra large, it makes me feel like this.
Richard My, my shirts are pretty blousy. They're pretty, there's a lot of additional fabric. You know, I ebb and flow and weight and, you know, you don't, you don't want to, I don't want to, lock myself in on a certain waste when I could just belt it up. And anyway, so anyway, we went to, we went to a couple of stores yesterday and one of the outfits that they gave me, I came out and I looked like I was about to foment a revolution in Cuba. I looked, I was, I was, I was a cigar and a seven hour speech away from being Fidel Castro, but anyway. So there we go. So yes, I haven't showered. I dress poorly. Thanks for having me back, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah, it's good to have you back. And you know, it's good to know that you essentially are, you know, just one step away from handcart pioneers in the sacrifice that you've made.
Richard Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm with the, many of the missionaries out there that aren't having a cold shower. I know the difference is, or not having a warm shower. The difference is my son still showered, but in a cold shower every day.
Gerrit I see. But you're not willing to make that sacrifice.
Richard Yeah. I will shower no more forever until we get that water heater fixed.
Gerrit Well, speaking of missionaries, I believe we have a missionary email.
Richard We do. We do. This is-
Gerrit Well, not really from a missionary.
Richard Well, it's for Elder Toon. Now, I'm not going to give the parents first name. I'll say Sister Toon, as I don't want to dox anybody like I did.
Gerrit But she probably wants her name. Yeah. Now the problem is it's her full name.
Intro Yeah.
Gerrit You know what? Probably a married name.
Intro Oh, yeah.
Richard I don't know Angela Toon's maiden name. So I won't disclose that so the people can get access to her Deseret First Credit Union account.
Gerrit Yeah. Seriously.
Richard Hi, doctors. Thanks for the laughs and knowledge. Would you please add Elder Toon to access the podcast? His email is this. He's serving in the California Ontario Mission. That's a great mission. By the way, that's a relatively new mission. When I was there, it didn't exist. It was San Bernardino and it's chopped some stuff up.
Gerrit And it was part of the current Ontario Mission in your mission back then.
Richard You know what? Well, I'll get the crack research stuff because I don't know what the boundaries are. When I say new, I mean, in the last 27 years, I like how new I is, is for us.
Gerrit Oh, this happened since my mission. You know, I mean, Bill Clinton was president. That just happened.
Richard Yeah. Yeah. He was president when I got home. Yeah, that's right. Oh, he's Mandarin.
Gerrit He welcomed Richard home.
Richard He's Mandarin speaking. Mandarin speaking Ontario. What a fun. Wow. What a fun deal. Thought you'd enjoy an excerpt from his recent email. Watch out for Gen Z slang. Anywho, I have been enjoying the mission so much. To be honest, I always thought those missionaries who were like, I was the happiest on my mission or I love my mission were slightly capping. That's hilarious. You think I pulled that off, Gerrit, saying capping the way I said capping?
Gerrit I feel like anyone who's under the age of 43 will call you on it. But for our listeners who are older than that, they're going to feel like that was right.
Richard I'm going to turn my hat around to finish reading the rest of this. He did.
Gerrit He literally just turned it around. He looks like Run DMC right now.
Richard Capping means lying, Gerrit. Yes. Before mine, but like not to be cornball, but they into something. Are they on to something? See, look at that. I put into because I thought it would also not make sense. Is it possible that I've just been speaking like Gen Z this whole time and it's not my inability to read or see?
Gerrit You're so hip that actually that's why your family had to have the clothing intervention is that you're ahead of the trend. They don't know it, but 10 years from now, everybody's going to be wearing clothes that don't fit them. It'll be the thing.
Richard I hate shopping for clothes. I hate it.
Gerrit I feel like it's an insane waste of money. It's the biggest waste of money that there is.
Richard It's an insane waste of money. Yeah. It's crazy.
Gerrit Especially when you're a gentleman of great carriage like I am or where your weight fluctuates. You always are saying to yourself, someday I'm going to fit back into those pants. And it's like, I mean, you haven't worn those pants since you were a junior in high school. Someday I'm going to get back into it.
Richard I really have never done or will do something like this. It's life changing. And seeing someone get baptized after all the hours, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. out grinding, people rejecting, tiredness is so worth it. Dang, I'm yapping holy. Okay. I don't.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard In context.
Gerrit He's yapping holy.
Intro He's getting preachy.
Gerrit He's getting preachy.
Richard Okay. Very good. Okay.
Gerrit Very good.
Richard Thank you. Just a glimpse into the language we get to decipher. I think, I don't think that we're all going to get our own Urim and Thummim soon enough, Gerrit. I feel like we all need it.
Gerrit We needed it when we had teenagers.
Richard He has started defining some words in parentheses, helps grandparents out a lot. Thanks again. Hope this gives you a chuckle as well. That is fantastic. You know what's great? I had this conversation with Parker before he shipped off. You've said this several times, it's very funny, where you've said, we tell people missions are really hard. Yes. We say it, you and I say it all the time. Missions are very difficult. Missions are very hard. And then when the missionary gets out, they're like, no one told me it was going to be this hard. And we're like, yes, like that's all we did was tell you that.
Gerrit Especially if they were listening to me. I mean, what are the positive stories I've shared from my mission?
Richard But the thing that I said to Parker was that because it's the mission is the, you know, the embodiment of Second Nephi Chapter Two. And because it is so hard is the reason that when somebody does get baptized or does listen or whatever, it is just the most incredible thing. So it is, it is the highest of highs and it's the lowest of lows. And the highest of highs can only be there because you feel it can be so, so difficult. But that's, that's fantastic. Good for Elder tune, serving in California, foreign language speaking, which I always say is the best. It's all the culture, half the diarrhea. And it's the best.
Gerrit I'm going to call an audible on us. I know we had another email we're going to read, but while we were talking, literally while we were talking, while you were talking about the clothing size, an email came in that I'm just going to read real quick.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Yeah. You know what? Maybe we should make this a special feature. If you happen to email literally in the first 10 minutes of while we're actually recording, which you'll never know what that is because we never know what that is.
Richard The joke we made last time, because that's how the last, like a couple of weeks ago, someone got their email read same way. I think the joke was even the angels in heaven.
Gerrit Yeah, well, look, we read every email. We literally don't have the ability to respond to all of them because there's a thousand a week, basically. So, I mean, we read them all, but this one just came in from Jessica. Thank you is the subject line. First, despite my first impression, I've really come to appreciate the podcast. Jessica, I think you're confusing the podcast with just us as people. If you had met us like on the streets somewhere, it would be like, well, despite my first impression, I eventually had grace for them. The podcast has been my companion during all sorts of activities. There have been moments where the knowledge has come in handy. I had conversations with others where I've asked if they've checked their sources. Shockingly, they hadn't. I feel like anytime you ever ask anyone if they've checked their sources, the answer is going to be no.
Richard No, no, it's not.
Gerrit I never realized how much we just trust whatever we hear. My testimony has deepened in so many ways. With the knowledge gained from your podcast, there were even episodes that brought balm to my troubled heart. So thank you. May God bless you for your sacrifice and for others. My daughter's recently started her mission in Texas, Dallas North.
Richard Awesome.
Gerrit Is that the mission your sister lives in?
Richard You know what? I'm going to look it up on the other. I got to look up Ontario Mission.
Intro You got a lot of things you're looking up over there.
Gerrit Why don't we have a bigger crack research staff?
Richard They're working summer hours, Gerrit.
Gerrit It's true.
Intro It's true.
Richard BYU comes back on Wednesday. Well, today's Tuesday. So by the time this drops, we'll have the full crack research staff.
Gerrit I mentioned to her that I thought she might benefit from listening to the podcast. She has sent it and so I'm making a request in her behalf. So if you don't know, we provide both the regular podcast as well as the premium content to missionaries for free. We just need their missionary email. So that's what she's requesting. Hopefully, she doesn't meet any contentious people. Wow, that is a hope going to Dallas. Now, if you're not English speaking, maybe. If you are English speaking, well, it will be good to know what it is we believe. So hopefully, she doesn't meet any contentious people, but I would rather that she has some knowledge and preparation should the moment arrive. We'll get her added to that list. So thank you so much for your email, Jessica. And you won the lottery of sending an email that was short, that we could read right as we started. So now, Richard, our final email.
Richard Yes. So it looks like it is my sister's. It's just north of Plano, and it's got Denton and again, I believe that might, I can't tell exactly, but it looks like that that's the case. And looking at the Ontario Mission, by the way, which is a relatively new one, that doesn't look like almost anything. Maybe a little bit of riverside that it carves off, but.
Gerrit I love the fact that we're having a conversation about where a Texas Mission has its boundaries when 30 years ago the boundaries were the Central States Mission.
Richard Yeah, it was, yeah. Texas was, the joke that I made at my father's expense is when he served in Boston, Massachusetts, and I called it the Western States Mission.
Gerrit The church is growing, it's great.
Richard Yes, it's very exciting. Last email here from Chantel. Let me pull that up, and it is gone, and I am doing a poor job of masking it. Yeah, it's very odd. Here it is. Very good.
Gerrit Are you blowing it up to 98 point font?
Richard 48, 48 font. That's the standard of truth font. Richard, please keep reading for my Super Bowl pick. Message your podcast, your padcast has changed my life.
Gerrit We went very Massachusetts. It's a padcast.
Richard A padcast has changed my life. I like legions of other Litners. Pad your podcast or follow him. I listen to their podcast every week, but I keep yours in show archived mode and listen daily. Mostly that we fall asleep at night. We should actually, we should actually look at, have you seen those bedtime speakers that you put underneath your pillow?
Gerrit For sure.
Richard We should absolutely partner with that speaker company.
Gerrit We could market our podcast and put thousands of insomniacs asleep every night.
Richard It's true. That's very, very funny. All right. I lost it again. Oh my gosh. So many tabs open looking for mission boundaries. You have taught me so much, including how to not care that my coworkers don't think I am Christian. Quite frankly, my Jesus is so much better than their Jesus. It has given me a newfound confidence in not feeling like I need to justify my beliefs. Anyway, I digress, which I know you relate to. My purpose in sending this email is that I have been asked by one of our stake leaders to teach a Sharing the Gospel lesson. The lesson I was asked to teach is Search the Scriptures. There is a section on using technology and understanding good sources. I want to teach with the spirit and power and share some of the great things I've learned by being a litner. But I'm like, Christy, that's great, but I'm like, Christy, I don't want to be called to anything with increased responsibility.
Richard I know based on the fact that you say you have no calling with keys, that you must have a secret for avoidance. That's very funny, by the way. It's very funny. The idea of like, Hey, you don't have an important calling. How did you pull that?
Gerrit What did you do? Please, Chantel, see the first 14 minutes of this podcast.
Richard Yeah, that's very, very funny. After all, you're providing so many church members with the knowledge that they need to secure their prestige. I think really your secret was that you're technically a missionary, right?
Gerrit Yeah. So right now, I'm technically a service missionary. That's right. And although Jobless Rob is trying to co-op me into making me an elders quorum teacher now that they need them every week.
Richard Oh, yeah.
Gerrit And I was like, well, I don't think you can give me a calling. And he's like, well, I can invite the missionaries to teach whenever I want, right? And I was like, I guess, yeah.
Richard What if I invite you to teach every week? The problem you have is, it's similar to my problem, is 25 minutes. Oh man, I'm gonna struggle.
Gerrit It's like one Joseph Smith quote and 14 minutes on football.
Richard No, it's not even getting to the quote.
Gerrit Yeah, it's me telling you that there's gonna be a quote and two weeks from now when I teach again, I'll share it with you.
Richard What I do serve as Young Women's President, many years ago, I wanted the young women to know it was okay to ask questions. I only wish that I would have had the knowledge and understanding to teach them about recognizing good sources. Too many of those young women have left their faith. I know it isn't my fault, but oh, how I wish I would have told them to ask questions, but be careful where they looked for their answers. This is why I feel it is so vital to teach our youth how to seek for and recognize good sources.
Gerrit What a great point, honestly. We also got that from the other email. It's not about not having questions. Everyone has questions. It's about where you decide you're going to go for your answers and the credit you're going to give to those answers. And so I very much, you know, we have a couple of emails referencing the fact that you need to have proper sources. And hopefully that's part of what this podcast is giving. I'll let you finish your postscript there.
Richard No, it's great. In closing, this is probably the most important part of the email here. In closing, as the NFL season is about to begin, I would like to make my pick and place my bet of no money because of President Hinckley's 2005 conference address that the Seattle Seahawks will repeat this year go Hawks. So I felt like that was an important part. We're glad. You know, it's wonderful.
Gerrit She thinks the Seahawks, you know, way to go out on a limb. You know.
Richard What do you want her to pick?
Gerrit For all we know, she's a bandwagon Seahawks fan. She just started liking him last year. She doesn't even know who Marshawn Winch is.
Richard The Seahawks are plus $1100. So that's pretty good for a Super Bowl. Those are pretty good odds. Those are pretty good odds. So what that means, again, no one should gamble. You should never gamble. You shouldn't gamble. But what plus $1100 means is that if you, if somebody who defies President Hinckley was to put $100, yeah, a profit, was to put $100 at the MGM Sports Book and they win, then you'd get $1100. That's what that means. Right. By the way, do you know who the favorite is? It's the Rams. The Rams buy a lot.
Gerrit Yeah, guaranteed the Rams. Well, especially they signed, you know, Donald came back and you know, so yeah, it's crazy.
Richard So yeah, Rams literally better than than double the chance of Seattle, better than Ezra, Buffalo Bills, then Ravens, Seahawks, then Chiefs.
Gerrit All right. Well, let's talk a little Ezra Booth apostasy. Nothing says Super Bowl picks like Ezra Booth because he came in number eight, which if you were to put him into odds, I mean, that'd be probably more like he probably had somewhere in the neighborhood of like, I don't know, plus 10,000 odds to be in the top five.
Richard So right now, essentially, if Ezra Booth was, if we look at it the same way, he'd be the Los Angeles Chargers plus 17,000. Yeah.
Gerrit And look, I'm sure there's people living in Los Angeles or maybe even San Diego that believe that that's true.
Richard Well, could Ezra Booth have done more to move up? He could have.
Gerrit Yeah. He could have done more. He kind of drops off the radar. I mean, he writes all these letters. And as we were talking about, you know, these, these angry antagonistic letters, but then he kind of disappears. I mean, and he doesn't just disappear from being a Latter-day Saint. Like so many people who leave the church, Ezra Booth seems to have left religion kind of altogether. So he was a Methodist minister, becomes a Latter-day Saint, becomes one of the few early high priests in the Latter-day Saint Church, apostatizes, and then it appears just kind of becomes agnostic and a religious, even though he event, he initially goes back to Methodism, he drifts away from it.
Richard And I have to, I mean, that kind of, we see it all the time now. And honestly, despite what's in these letters and what he's saying, he knows what he saw, he knows what he felt, he knows what he did. And certainly he's, you know, he's talking about the size of Laban's army five minutes after, right? So, you know, so I get it, you know, I understand that, but I mean, he's a mighty man.
Gerrit He can command 50.
Richard He can even slay 50.
Gerrit Why not us?
Richard But I feel like, I feel like that's one of the things that it isn't, it isn't too ridiculous to assume that that's the case because he, my guess is that he's got all kinds of problems stirring around in his, in his head. And yeah, that's, you know.
Gerrit Well, imagine that you witness Joseph Smith heal Elsa Johnson.
Richard Right.
Gerrit You witness evil spirits being cast out in the June 3rd meeting. And then you go back to your, to your Methodist Church where, where no one's casting any evil spirits out, where nobody's being healed. And I can only assume that there's at least something rolling around in your head of now, how exactly were these Mormons that I know are a bunch of, you know, criminals who are a bunch. This was a total plot. How were they doing these things? But the true Christians that I'm now interacting with, they don't do them at all.
Richard Right? Yeah.
Gerrit I mean, it kind of seems like a good question to ask. I mean, you can't pin on him the same thing you would pin on later apostates. I mean, for a Latter-day Saint who leaves today, I understand why you end up becoming agnostic or atheistic. Because when you go from believing that God desperately wants to save everyone, that God created a means whereby everyone could be saved, that we all have eternal import, that we lived with God before we came here. And when you go from that to believing that you had no pre-mortal existence, that your salvation more or less is at the mercy of wherever you ended up being born and whoever your parents were, I think that's pretty unfulfilling. Like, you have to become incredibly selfish to be like, oh, this is much better. The idea that everyone could be saved, that's way worse than just me and whoever got a Bible in their life.
Gerrit I mean, obviously, people do it. And look, if you do leave the church, please, please maintain Christianity because Jesus is still your Savior regardless. But I understand why so many people leave, who leave become agnostic or atheistic because, you know, look, Latter-day Saints don't have the answers to everything. We certainly have more answers to the questions that actually matter than a lot of other religions do. I mean, even the answer to the question of suffering in and of itself. Fundamentally, it's the question that Christians struggle to answer. If God is great, why is this terrible? And all kinds of sophistry comes out of the woodwork. Well, because Adam and Eve ate the fruit. As if God got surprised that the people he made out of nothing ate the fruit.
Gerrit As if he couldn't foresee everything. And he's like, look, I know they're going to eat the fruit. But you know, even though I already know they're going to do it, I'm going to make them the same. But also, I'm going to make sure the punishment is the absolute condemnation and suffering of every person who will ever exist for the remainder of time. I'm going to make sure that's part of what I do. By the way, I'm good. By the way, just so everyone knows. Well, how do we know you're good? Because I just said so. So I do a lot of bad things, but I just tell you that they're good. And then you have to believe me because I said so. That's a little bit obviously, I'm not portrayed. That's a little straw manning. But still, speaking of someone who's straw man, Ezra Booth. Here in some of his last letters that he writes, he's really taking aim at individuals, not just the tenets or the idea of Zion.
Gerrit Sidney Rigdon has acquired a habit of exaggeration. I presume it will be doubted by few who have long been acquainted with him. Most of his communications carry the appearance of high and false coloring, and I am persuaded that truth by his embellishing touch often degenerates into fiction. I've heard him several different times give a representation of an interview between himself to use his own phrasology and the far-famed Alexander Campbell. This man's wanted shrewdness and presence of mind forsook him when in the presence of the gigantic Mormonite, so much so that he was quite confused and act silly according to Rigdon. I will give you a specimen of the language which Rigdon said he assailed him. You have lied, Alexander. Alexander, you have lied. If you will not receive the Book of Mormon, you will be damned. With such like arguments, he browbeat his antagonist until he had silenced him and set him down like the pusillanimous cur at the feet of his chastising master.
Gerrit You are a liar. You are a child of the devil. You are an enemy to all righteousness. The spirit of the devil is in you. And the like is dealt out profusely against any obstinate opponent, and especially one whom they are pleased to nickname. And he has this in italics, apostate. I think he's self-referencing there. I regret that I'm under the necessity of making such statements and could wish there was no occasion for them, but truth compels me to it and good society demands it. It is always funny that people are like, well, I have to say this. I'm forced to. I'm forced to write this letter and have it published. I'm required, just so everyone can know. So in his last letter, his ninth letter, he's going to spend a lot of time, again, talking about the Latter-day Saints trying to preach to the Indians and how that can be seen as a negative thing that they're gonna try to convince the Indians that they should rise up against the whites of the country.
Gerrit But he's also gonna really attack the idea that Joseph Smith receives written revelation and only he's allowed to receive it. He says that some others, he's claiming that other people might claim that they have the ability. The right of delivering written commandments and revelations belong exclusively to Joseph Smith and no other person can interfere without being guilty of sacrilege. In this office, he is to stand until another is appointed in his place and no other person can be appointed in his place unless he falls through transgression. Very interesting that Ezra Booth understands prophetic utterance better than multiple apostate movements in the church today. Ezra Booth understood in 1831 as he attacked the church, that only Joseph could receive revelation for the church or his successor.
Gerrit And yet, you got the Denver Snuffers of the world running around saying, Yeah, and also except for me, also me too, and me. I mean, it's a stunning thing, the number of people claiming that actually know, the great exception to that is, it's also me. If you are ever encountering anyone who is making that claim, run, don't walk to get away from what they're saying. No matter how great and wonderful a person they seem to be, because however great and wonderful they might seem to be, they are confused on a topic of who has the authority to receive revelation that an apostate from late 1831 was not confused on. But don't worry, you know, they've got it all figured out.
Richard Well, it sounds like there's a little bit of sour grapes, like he wished that he had been treated in a position of greater esteem, possibly, right?
Gerrit It's certainly at least what some of the sources say. Some of the sources say that, you know, he thought he'd be able to make some money doing it. He thought that he would be invited to the conference where they, you know, laid out the temple cornerstones and he wasn't, you know what I mean? He certainly does seem like he thought he would be treated like he was far more important. And, you know, as Joseph's gonna deal with this his whole life, as Joseph will say that, you know, that there are always some elder to raise him, you know, raise himself up and say, you know, I am the great I, great big elders is what Joseph calls them. You know, people are just certain about how important they are. And Ezra Booth kind of seems like he's one of those people. Joseph tells people that the right to deliver written revelations belongs exclusively to himself and no other person shall interfere in this business. And if he transgresses, he will graciously condescend one point another and instead. And only the proof produced for the support of such assertions is barely his word upon which they implicitly rely and become entirely resigned to their position, to their place, their person and property under his control.
Gerrit Even to risk salvation of their souls upon his say so. Such glaring duplicity on one hand and unaccountable credulity on the other seldom have a parallel in the annals of man. Never was there a death spot more jealous of his prerogatives than Smith. Never was a fortress guarded with more vigilance and ardor against every invading foe than he guards these. Smith from the apprehended revival in the department of written inspiration from another quarter, right? So, you know, he's attacking this idea that only Joseph can receive revelation. And it makes this part of his entire argument against it. The way he's going to conclude his last letter is, It is with pleasure that I close this exposition, having in part accomplished what I intended when I commenced it.
Gerrit The employment has been an unpleasant one to me, and from the first, I should have gladly avoided it. Could I have done it? And maintained a conscience void of offense towards God and man. But should an individual by this exposition be extricated or prevented from falling into the delusion, which has been the subject of consideration, I shall be amply compensated for the painful task which I have performed. You know, again, the protestation, I really didn't want to have to spend all my time doing this, but I owed it to the public to do this. Now the response to this is, of course, these letters, they get reprinted far and wide. So part of the reason why we have him listed at number eight is he's very early. Most of the country doesn't know what Mormonism even is. For many people, their introduction into what Latter-day Saints believe is Ezra Booth's letters that are reprinted everywhere.
Gerrit And in fact, they become a big enough deal that by December of 1831, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 71 were told in the commentary of this section that the purpose of its receipt was because of the lies that were being published about the church. If you read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 71, I know it just feels like we went right into search these commandments or slurred these commandments. But, behold, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith Jr. and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that is necessary in expediting me that you should open your mouths and proclaim my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures according to the portion of the spirit and power, which shall be given unto you, even as I will. Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about and in the church also for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.
Gerrit Verily, this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you. Wherefore labor ye in my vineyard, call upon the inhabitants of the earth and bear record and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations, which are to come. Verse seven, wherefore confound your enemies, call upon them to meet you both in public and in private and as much as you are faithful, their shame shall be made manifest. So this is, you know, this really, we should make this the motto of the podcast. Like when people are like, I don't know if you should examine anti-Mormon stuff, then we just put it up there. You as if this revelation was to me. Let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, there is no weapon that is formed against you that shall prosper. And if any man lift his voice against you, he shall be confounded in my own due time. I confess, I perhaps likened Doctrine and Covenant Section 71 to myself a little more than I should have when I was serving a mission.
Gerrit And when people would attack us, I possibly should have just turned and walked away. And I did not always do this. And I justified myself by Doctrine and Covenant Section 71 that says, you know what? Bring forth your strong reasons. Why don't you come at me with Galatians?
Richard At me, bro.
Gerrit Yeah. Come at me with Galatians. It's another gospel and we'll have a conversation. But Sidney Rigdon legitimately does this. So that revelation is received. Sidney Rigdon goes out, puts a notice in the local newspaper. I give notice to Ezra Booth that his attendance is desired as I shall review the letters written by him published by the Ohio Star-Headed Mormonism, as those letters are an unfair and false representation of the subjects which they treat. Should it not be convenient to review them on Sunday, I shall review them on the day following, if a place can be provided for the purpose by the citizens of Ravenna. Or, at any time, or at any place where it may be thought convenient for all concern. To Simon's writer, Sir, as you have publicly declared that the Book of Mormon be an imposition, and I believing it to be otherwise, at present, deem it my privilege to know it as well as you, do hereby present a request to you to come meet me in the township of Hiram, Portage County, at such time and place as may be agreed upon hereafter to investigate this subject before the public.
Gerrit That if I'm deluded in receiving this book as a revelation from God, that I may be corrected and the public relieved from anxiety. Your acceptance or rejection of this request is desired through the medium of the Ohio star, Sidney Rigdon. So Sidney places an ad, essentially arguing for a public debate. My guess is, we have some apologist in the Latter Day Saints circles who willingly go and debate the church to usually people who are other Christians, right?
Richard Right.
Gerrit They probably love the heck out of Sidney Rigdon posting this like, oh, so you said that only a deluded person would believe in the Book of Mormon, like to have a conversation with you about it. And, you know, let's do this in public. So he is going to be responded to by Simon's writer, but their public debate does not seem to take place.
Richard It's too bad.
Gerrit It really is too bad. That you would like to see them clash lances beyond this. So we know that it had an impact of enough to where the Lord is going to command Joseph and Sidney to like stop doing their other missionary efforts and just try to build up the church where these letters are being so destructive. Right. But then you also know that they have a long, they have a long reach. For instance, in newspapers, the far away is Maine. These letters are being published. The New York Observer newspaper is going to say, Ezra Booth of Nelson, Portis County, Ohio, who was lately a zealous member of the new sect of fanatics called Mormonites, which has lately sprung up in the West, but who has now renounced his error.
Gerrit He is giving an account of in a general series published in the Ohio Star of what he heard and saw while he remained connected with that society. We give below a part of one of his letters. It may seem strange to some that such miserable delusion can spread in any part of this country, but they who best understand the character of the population and those districts with which are only partially supplied with evangelical ministry will not be much surprised. The greater efforts are if greater efforts are not made to diffuse learning and religion in the West, we may expect soon to see the Mormonites or some other fanatics equally insane, counting their disciples by the thousands.
Richard So I do see this. I see this better now than I have before.
Gerrit So you have 96 point font.
Richard Well, I see it better now. The idea that you have all of these different parties of religionists now that are highlighting this particular issue because it's like, hey, here's a person that was this prominent person that went over to this and now is back and is telling all. And so I can see how this gets enormous. People are sharing this all over the place.
Gerrit Well, and it's not just an antagonistic thing. I mean, if we were just doing antagonistic things and people said, you know, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books of anti-Mormon statements that are made.
Richard Right.
Gerrit It's that this is early in the church. This is 1831. He's apostatizing when the church is barely a year and three months old. He is then publishing specific attacks on the church from the position of, I was a Mormon. I'm sure, I don't know if Ezra Booth had a gravelly voice, but I want to believe that he was like, I was a member of those deluded fanatics. I don't know. I want to believe that he's a smoker.
Richard I want to believe that too. I desperately want to believe that.
Gerrit I need to believe that Ezra Booth was a smoker. So again, the timing matters because someone making these claims in 1840 are going to kind of be old hat by that point. This is not Alexander Campbell attacking the Book of Mormon in a newspaper. This is a newspaper providing its own little judgment. This is the apostasy of someone from the inside who is then making this wide-ranging publication claiming that he has special knowledge, that it's all a delusion, that Joseph is a farce from the inside. So primarily the attacks that you have up to this point, they're all external. Here you have someone who is one of the original high priests in the church, travels on that first mission to Missouri to see where Zion is going to be.
Gerrit And now he's using that very voyage down to that very journey down to Zion as a means of destroying people's faith, saying that the leaders are all con artists, the people who believe are all deluded. Now, of course, the very interesting part is, so Ezra, so if the people who believe are a bunch of lunatics and idiots, how about your baptism date? What's... Well, not me, not me. I was just tricked. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Which also, I mean, if you think you're embarrassed telling people that you gave a bunch of money to, you know, someone who was doing this, running an online scam, imagine when you are a Methodist minister and you become a Latter-day Saint. So yeah, this is part of the reason why, you know, it took all of these episodes to get to why he matters so much, but it's really the first extensive apostate account of the church where it's not just people attacking what Mormons believe, it's an ex-Mormon publicly attacking Mormonism from the inside and claiming that it's not even, that it's just false from even its beginning.
Gerrit Another newspaper, again, the New York Baptist. I have no idea what the stance of the New York Baptist will be.
Intro It could go either way.
Richard Yeah, looking at all sides, very pro-Catholic.
Gerrit Yeah, fair and balanced. Everyone knows that the New York Baptist, super pro-Mormon. You know what? We should start a newspaper called the New York Baptist. That's just a pro-Mormon newspaper. That'd be great. We'll just call ourselves the New York Baptist. And it'll just be like, reasons the Book of Mormon answers questions, not found in the Bible. Just go for it. The Mormon Delusion is what they title this. By information that we have received from the West, some are falling off and others uniting with Joseph Smith, that imposter from Palmyra. One who has recently left them by the name of Ezra Booth is publishing the Ohio Star, an expose of their diabolical pretensions and impositions. So diabolical devil.
Gerrit So the New York Baptist is claiming that Joseph Smith is under the influence of Satan. Now, no one's ever heard that before as a modern Latter-day Saint, but that's what he's saying. They pretend an ability as in ancient times to speak with tongues. Again, thank you for the self-own. I mean, Baptist Register, these people are claiming like in the early Christian church, that people can speak in tongues. Like there's no possible way that they could be Christ Church if they're doing things that were done in Christ Church. There's just no possible way. I mean, it's one of the greater cell phones of all time actually. They are claiming things from the original church. You don't say. It's almost as if there was some kind of, I don't know, restoration of some kind.
Gerrit Some kind of a restructuring, maybe in the latter days of a recreation.
Richard So, you talk about some of the groups and sects that are looking for the church as it was in those days. I mean, I got to imagine that those kinds of things unintentionally help the church, right?
Gerrit I mean, at least in this regard, I mean, but it does go to show that the Christian world in Joseph's time has essentially abandoned, again, the Protestant Christian world, has essentially abandoned the idea that someone could speak in tongues, right? They pretend an ancient ability, as an ancient times speaker of tongues, that Smith is able to converse with celestial spirits whenever he pleases. So you mean like in the New Testament, when like angels appeared to the apostles and stuff? Yeah, they pretend that people would like have the ability to do that. And you know, the very fact that the New York Baptist Register is making that argument shows you culturally how certain people are that miracles and revelation cannot exist. Right. Otherwise, it's a pretty bad argument to make.
Richard Right.
Gerrit Hey, these guys are claiming they can speak with tongues. That's ridiculous. Is it though? It's very funny. It's like when people argue that there's no possible way God could have ever commanded or permitted polygamy. You're like, well, you know, the Bible like exists and stuff, right? I mean, like literally all monotheistic religions are descended from Abraham. Yeah. Well, that's different. Abraham was sinning. Abraham. So it must not have been that big of a sin since God granted him the posterity of the entire world. But yeah, obviously it's a sin. No, no, it was a sin. It just, you know, later. I mean, the funny part about that is, you know, because the Old Testament, of course, doesn't make any statements against plural marriage, right? In fact, has essentially rules regulating it, right? And you won't find any scholar that will say, oh yeah, plural marriage was seen as evil in Judaism.
Gerrit You won't find a scholar that says that, right? You'll find any evangelical preacher that will say that. But then what they'll point to is nothing. Or they'll point to, well, if God wanted polygamy, why was Adam and Eve in the garden? Yeah, I'm not advocating that every marriage was polygamy. That, what I'm saying is that it's hard to argue that the Bible is opposed to it. Well, the very fact that it's, that someone's gonna tell you that it's so evil, it's how I know that Mormonism was never, ever, ever true. I hate to break it to those of you who haven't really read the Old Testament very closely. Of the things that are not missing from it, are God being willing to tell people when they're sinning. It's there. He is more than willing to let them know what they should or should not do. But he just happened to pass on the great argument of a oral marriage, right?
Gerrit Like, which we know they were practicing, but he just never did anything about it, even though he's more than willing to tell people when things are wrong. It's kind of the same thing with the New Testament, right? So let me get this straight. If I don't have the right belief about the nature and essence of Jesus, even though I have faith in him, even though I'm telling you right now to the world, Protestant world, I know that Jesus is my Savior. I know the only way I can be saved is through him. I know that his atonement is the only way I can be forgiven. I am declaring it my resurrected Savior. You would say, well, you're still going to burn in hell because you believe in the wrong Jesus. Well, what do you mean wrong Jesus? I believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God who died for my sins and was resurrected. Well, because you don't understand his homo ousion essence properly according to Trinitarian theology. If that's the case, if the case that having a professed belief in Jesus as my Savior is not actually enough to save me, why in the world doesn't Jesus or Paul or literally anyone in the New Testament carve out, I don't know, one sentence that says, oh, and by the way, if you don't believe in homo ousion, you're going to burn in hell forever.
Gerrit It's so essential that I'm going to burn in hell. The Bible is the only source of knowledge, but it's not in there. That statement. I mean, thank you for bringing me the Bible that's missing the one thing that if I don't believe, I'm going to burn in hell.
Richard That's a good point.
Gerrit Did I get a little off topic there? Yes.
Richard Oh, no, but it's a great point, though, right? Because it is the core reason why we're not perceived as Christian, and yet here we are where nothing is stated about that specifically. I mean, you'll get people that will proof text and find a verse here and a verse there and say that that's what it means, even though it's not what it means.
Gerrit But even then, you won't find anywhere. Even when you're trying to say, well, see, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father also, Philip. Even if you're proof texting it, you don't have anywhere the statement. If you don't believe that God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God and not three distinct beings, then you will burn in hell. Now, I've been told that literally thousands of times. I mean, just in one conversation, thousands of times. So, if that's so essential, and again, as a Latter-day Saint, I don't have to have everything spelled out because we believe in continuing revelation. It's a Protestant. It's a solo scriptura who's coming at us with, if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't. It ain't. Except for the one thing that I'm brow-beating you with over and over and over again.
Gerrit Yeah, but that what you're saying isn't actually even in there. No, no, it is though, because if you look at this and then, no, no, the statement, if you don't believe in the Trinity, you will burn in hell is not in the Bible. And yet that's the deciding factor in the way that people will look at it. Look, we could go through a bunch of newspapers. The Rochester Anti-Masonic Enquirer lists something very similar, quoting Ezra Booth. And so he gets national press in his apostasy, and it allows people to simply dismiss the church. And really where he gets his big break, I mean, if Ezra Booth was looking for his big break, because look, the Ohio Star, the Baptist Enquirer, those are okay, those are fine. But he gets his real big break, the way that many early anti-Mormons do. And that is from Mormonism Unveiled with Eber Howe.
Gerrit Now, Eber Howe is not going to be on our list because he's not an apostate. So you know what, when we're done with this, we're going to do a list of people that Gerrit hates. So we've got apostates, but then we need to do a list of anti-Mormons that were never apostates.
Richard Yeah, but the list of people you hate is probably different than the list of just anti-Mormons. I think I'm probably number four on that.
Gerrit Well, I think they're similar though. I'm not like you where I somehow love the Yankees, but hate the Knicks when they're literally the same fan base.
Richard They're not the same fan base.
Gerrit They're the same fan base.
Richard No, no, no, no.
Gerrit Every single Knicks fan is also a Yankees fan, dude. They're not Mets fans.
Richard Yeah, but it was the unearned arrogance of it all. They won a championship. So now that's my problem is now it's like, all right, now they won. So I have to shut up.
Gerrit Well, I mean, I feel bad for the city because I don't know how many buses need to be burned. I know it's a lot though. I know that the number of buses. So I don't know how many buses will be burned if they win another championship. I know that the number isn't zero. I know that.
Intro Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Gerrit It's greater to or more than one, for sure, in the number of buses. But in Mormonism Unveiled, part of this concerted argument that Eber Howe is going to make, attacking the church, he explains, he republishes, first of all, all of Ezra Booth's letters, which are quite lengthy, as you know, five episodes in, right? And I've only been reading snippets of them. And this is how he introduces it. And again, this book, the first anti-Mormon book, reproduced over and over and over again, spread everywhere. So Booth's letters are spread everywhere. They make up, look, you're going to get parts of Booth's letters on an anti-Mormon website right now. This second, if I whip up, you know, just right over to ex-Mormon on Reddit, and you'll have people quoting Ezra Booth's letters, primarily coming from this format, from Mormonism Unveiled.
Gerrit This is how he introduces it. The following letters were written by Ezra Booth, a Methodist clergyman and addressed to a presiding elder. He was an early convert to Mormonism, and he renounced it as soon as he was fully convinced of its nature and design. He gives a clear and comprehensive view of the whole imposition. Now, imposition, I know we usually use that term when it's like, I guess if we're going to a great Gatsby party, it's like, oh, I wouldn't want to impose. Is there any way I could bother you for another glass of brandy? Oh, yes, no, no, no, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want to impose, no. But meaning it's made up, it's fake, it's a charade. The whole imposition in a plain and unvarnished style, and it will doubtless carry conviction to every rational mind that the whole of Mormonism is a base fabrication.
Gerrit So at least the way Eber Howe introduces these is, hey, I've got all my evidence. Here's someone from the inside. If you don't believe what an insider who apostatized said, then you are no longer being rational in your belief about Mormonism. And this is how Ezra Booth ends up number eight on the dial. This is how Kevin did it, number eight on the Great Apostate Hall of Fame, number eight with a countdown. And I think as we, you know, we'll obviously go to a different topic rather than going right to number seven or four or three. I do them out of order. We did have someone email quite angry that we were doing them out of order. They said, why are we on eight? I can't find ten or nine. And I wanted to respond.
Gerrit I don't think you've been paying attention to the podcast, I think.
Richard It's very unbranded for us to start with eight and then not go to seven.
Gerrit Yeah, well, we're still waiting on doing the King Fallout sermon. We've got Nauvoo Lyceum coming out.
Richard We got Lyceum we got to get back to. Yeah, we do.
Gerrit Yeah, I call them as Lyceum.
Richard Well, yeah, and we've eventually got to get to the ratification of the Idaho Constitution. That's what I want to do desperately.
Gerrit Yeah, I've only wanted to do the ratification of the Constitution. You mean the Idaho Constitution?
Richard Oh, the Idaho Constitution.
Gerrit Yeah, we're doing that sometime never.
Richard Oh, my gosh. No, it's great.
Gerrit That's a carrot I'm holding out to you, but I can't use that terminology because you ate carrots. So what do people say when they hold out a carrot and a stick to you? What do they say? Because to you, the carrot is the stick.
Richard I'd rather eat the stick.
Gerrit I'd rather go full. I'd rather be a beaver and just eat the wood rather than take the carrot.
Richard That's right. So then eventually, we'll do the Idaho State Constitution.
Gerrit We will. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for suffering through these. Again, the point of going through these is for you to understand where are some of this negative commentary comes from. But hopefully, the application part as well is not just, hey, don't just take any source because that doesn't mean it's a good source. Also, be careful whenever you allow yourself to go off of assumptions. You can be undermined. You know, Ezra Booth had an assumption that the city of Zion would fall down out of heaven when he got to Jackson County. And like everyone who's ever gone to Jackson County said, this is it. This is it. You know, and that assumption undermined his faith. And I plead with everybody every week. You have to stay close to the prophets and apostles.
Gerrit You have to. In fact, if you find yourself moving at all, you've got to stop. You've got to get yourself refocused. Again, don't allow yourself to be deceived just because, you know, this guy is a great guy and he's in my elders quorum and he helped me move a fridge once. So obviously what he's saying is right about an angel appearing to him. How do you think Satan is going to try to deceive you? He's going to try to deceive you through people that you want to believe, who are teaching things that you also want to believe. And that is where you have to be the most careful, where you have to say, I am going to follow what the prophet says and not what this person says. So thank you so much for joining us.
Richard Well, so sorry, I know you're winding down and it was all over and we're over time anyway, but I think there's an additional point to highlight here. And it is as, you know, there are reasons why we're not supposed to be trashing our church leaders. And this is a great example of when somebody that was in the faith or that is in the faith is saying a thing, the impact and injury that it has the opportunity to cause can be fairly dramatic. And so, yeah, everyone's lifting this person up saying, yeah, look what this member of the church, former member of the church has done. I mean, there's additional things in that for us beyond just the, you know, being careful not to apostatize or not to do things that take us away. But, I mean, there's great wisdom in those temple recommend questions as it relates to supporting leadership.
Richard And you do a great job speaking of supporting the prophet and following the prophet, but these words were used in it. And it's funny because you'll have a person, so Ezra Booth doesn't come back, but this happens all the time for people when they'll leave the church and they'll destroy, trash the church, and they'll have an experience or a thought or an impression or whatever. Or as Orson F. Whitney talks about, the tentacles of reaching out and trying to bring you back. But those things that you have said, much like Alma the Younger, can have an enormous negative impact.
Gerrit Yeah, and how are you ever gonna recall them? I mean. The space that's granted by, especially in the information age, of people publishing things against the church. I mean, yeah, I mean, how are you going to recall that? How are you going to go back and save every soul? I mean, it's unfortunate. Obviously, I wish Ezra Booth came back to the church, right? Like WW. Phelps did, came back to the church. Right. But it is something that Joseph warns people of, to be careful, to watch yourselves. Don't make any hasty moves. And that's part of the reason why we're doing this series. I mean, I think it's fun for people, you know, to read a bunch of anti-Mormon stuff in a safe space. But also, I mean, these things are being used right now.
Gerrit These arguments are being made this second, and they are the same arguments that were being made in 1831. So I think there's there's lots that hopefully, maybe not the best messengers, but the message itself is still getting across. So thanks again for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

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I wasn't offended by the name being incorrect. I don't remember my own name, but it's the doctor. That's the one that hurts.

RichardBanter

I was, I was, I was a cigar and a seven hour speech away from being Fidel Castro

RichardBanter

So it is, it is the highest of highs and it's the lowest of lows.

RichardInsight

It's like one Joseph Smith quote and 14 minutes on football.

GerritBanter

It's not about not having questions. Everyone has questions. It's about where you decide you're going to go for your answers and the credit you're going to give to those answers.

GerritInsight

And look, if you do leave the church, please, please maintain Christianity because Jesus is still your Savior regardless.

GerritInsight

Very interesting that Ezra Booth understands prophetic utterance better than multiple apostate movements in the church today.

GerritInsight

I need to believe that Ezra Booth was a smoker.

GerritBanter

He's going to try to deceive you through people that you want to believe, who are teaching things that you also want to believe.

GerritInsight

But, I mean, there's great wisdom in those temple recommend questions as it relates to supporting leadership.

RichardInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Others besides the prophet can receive revelation for the whole Church.
Studying what critics say is dangerous for believers.
The Bible clearly says anyone who rejects the Trinity will go to hell.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Everyone has questions. What matters is where you go for answers and how much credit you give those answers.

Ezra Booth's letters were the first major attack from a former member, and the Lord answered with D&C 71: confound your enemies in public and in private.

Even Booth understood in 1831 that only Joseph, or the one appointed in his place, could receive revelation for the Church.

Satan's most effective deceptions come through people we want to believe, teaching what we want to hear. Stay close to the prophets and apostles.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Doctor inflation, in reverseGoogle lists the hosts as Dr. Gerrit LeDuc and someone like Robert Sawyer, and losing the doctor is what hurts (0:46, 1:36).
Richard's wardrobe interventionNo hot water, triple-extra-large shirts, and one store outfit that made him look like Fidel Castro (1:36, 3:55, 5:03).
Super-premium pre-showThe pre-show is the best part and would be released at the Kim Jong Un tier (3:12).
Richard decodes Gen ZHe turns his hat around to read "capping" and "yapping holy" (7:41, 8:20, 9:32).
Emails read in real timeJessica's email arrives mid-recording and goes straight on air (11:50, 12:28).
The crack research staffWorking summer hours until BYU comes back, while Richard looks up the Ontario and Dallas North mission boundaries (13:48, 13:52, 14:57).
48-point fontThe Standard of Truth font, or 96 by Gerrit's estimate (16:07, 43:07).
Podcast as sleep aidChantel's "padcast" puts her to sleep, so they should partner with a pillow speaker company (16:24, 16:53).
Betting with a conscienceSeahawks at plus 1,100, Booth at Chargers odds, and nobody should gamble (21:16, 22:24).
The Idaho ConstitutionRichard still wants the episode on its ratification; Gerrit says sometime never (1:01:44, 1:01:59).
Out of orderA listener can't find numbers ten and nine, and the Nauvoo Lyceum and King Follett sermon still wait (1:00:25, 1:01:33).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites 2 Nephi 2Jesus Christ Is the Great Deliverer!Elder Kevin J. HathawayElder Hathaway testifies that Jesus Christ is the great deliverer and that the question for the faithful is not whether He will deliver, but how and when.October 2026 General Conference · cites 2 Nephi 2The Hour of Your Mission Is ComeBishop Sean DouglasBishop Douglas thanks missionaries of every age and urges the rising generation to place full-time missionary service high on their list.October 2026 General Conference · cites 2 Nephi 2“How Long Will It Be Ere They Believe Me?”Elder Dale G. RenlundElder Renlund recalls a heart-transplant patient who, days after a near-miraculous recovery, complained that his oatmeal was cold.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
What happened to Ezra Booth after his letters, and his drift away from religion altogether (22:42).
D&C 71 and the December 1831 mission of Joseph and Sidney to answer critics (36:05).
Sidney Rigdon's published challenge to Booth and Symonds Ryder, and why the debate never happened (38:45).
How Mormonism Unveiled carried Booth's letters to today's online critics (58:09).
Apostates who came back, like W. W. Phelps, compared with those who didn't (1:06:12).
SOT Litner · S6E35.