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S6E4 · Gadianton Robbers Part 2 (the Spirit World)
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Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 4 · 1:06:29

Gadianton Robbers Part 2 (the Spirit World)

Joseph Smith said 'paradise' was a modern word that misses what Jesus told the thief on the cross, and that reading lets Jesus be in paradise and preach to the spirits in prison on the same day.

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The question ·

Did Brigham Young really say Gadianton robbers still haunt Southern Utah, and where do spirits go when they die?

Darren (listener)

Gerrit opens with a victory lap for picking the national championship, and Richard announces a February 28 live event and a church history tour starting in Cleveland. Stephen writes that polygamist leaders once used Gadianton robber stories to scare teenagers away from his grandfather's ranch. Then Gerrit digs into the spirit world: R.C. Sproul's reading of 'today you will be with me in paradise,' Peter's account of Jesus preaching to spirits in prison, and the Catholic harrowing of hell. Joseph's Nauvoo sermon cuts through the contradiction with the world of spirits and baptism for the dead, then takes a step into the Godhead. Brigham's actual Gadianton comments are promised for next time.

Who comes upJoseph SmithJesus ChristR.C. SproulPeterPaulStephenFranklin D. RichardsNoah
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Well, Gerrit, thanks for having me back for another episode of Pay Horns Picks, where we pick exactly what's going to happen in sporting events, and that people can take that all the way to the bank.
Gerrit We did have someone email saying that, you know, all of our picks had been so bad that they didn't bet money, which we tell everyone not to bet any money at all.
Richard No, you should never bet money.
Gerrit And then you ended up being right over the fact that Miami covered.
Richard Miami did cover. I had them also winning, which...
Gerrit Was not a good pick.
Richard Well, I mean, a couple of bounces either way. It wasn't my Virginia pick. But...
Gerrit Yeah, that was pretty rough.
Richard But, Gerrit, sometimes a person nails it so well. I've created a little bit of a stinger here. I'd like to play it to... That all picks moving forward will have this stinger as the... And you need to fade the public. The recency bias on this for Indiana is insane.
Gerrit Okay, so you're taking Miami to win straight up.
Intro I'm taking Miami to cover in half for sure.
Richard But I think Miami wins.
Gerrit I'm gonna take Indiana to win, but Miami to cover.
Richard That's the safer bet. I think that that's the safer prediction. You're not betting.
Gerrit Yeah, Indiana wins by six. Somehow six, I don't know, but six.
Richard Looks like you got it.
Gerrit Wow, I mean, look, am I the reincarnated apostle Mathias that came to visit Joseph Smith at 1835 in Kirtland? It wasn't really Mathias, by the way. It was someone claiming to be Mathias. Look, I'm not saying that. But I'm also not, not saying that. Because how else could you get that dead on? How else could you get it dead on?
Richard So the game was fun. The second half obviously was a little more fun than the first half. But the Fernando Mendoza is such a likable kid.
Gerrit He really is.
Richard He really is.
Gerrit And the way that he scored that, the winning touchdown by throwing his body to the wolves, I don't know how much internal bleeding he has, but it's a lot of it.
Richard In an ever increasingly cynical world, he is a breath of fresh air. I am rooting for him until the Raiders crush his soul.
Gerrit Yeah, like all number one draft pick quarterbacks who go to LA or down to Vegas.
Richard Las Vegas.
Gerrit Yeah. His time of that smile, that boyish smile he has now, I imagine in four years, he will be a drug addict, that he will have taken up smoking even though he's a professional athlete, that he'll own a series of car washes, that he'll lose in some kind of deal.
Richard Let me die extra fashion. Yeah.
Gerrit Yes. I hope, again, both for him and for the Raiders that he pans out. I feel bad for you, Richard. I was rooting for the Bears. That Taylor Williams' touchdown pass on 4th down was, I think, the greatest throw I've ever seen.
Richard I was screaming. I was running around. It was absolutely thrilling.
Gerrit Did you want him to go for two there?
Richard I mean, in retrospect.
Gerrit Oh, right. But in retrospect. Providence, you're at home. And all of their other short yardage stuff at the goal line had been terrible.
Richard They couldn't convert on 4th. And I think they were over 5,000 on 4th and short until that last pass. Look, it was a heck of a season. And all of my hatred for Caleb Williams has been washed away. I feel like we just need to hear him out and just hear his side.
Gerrit He's just a complicated individual. You just got to give him time. Honestly, though, with people chasing him, backpedaling, and then getting hit as he threw it, the ball traveled 50 yards in the air.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit 50 yards in the air. Dime, target, right into Kemet's lap, just right there.
Richard Yeah, and there absolutely was no push off. I feel like... Look, look, the, I mean, the Rams are, the Rams are pretty good. And here's the other thing, too, like, I'm a huge Puka Nacua fan, right?
Gerrit Well, how could you not be? It's a BYU fan.
Richard How could you not be? So, you know, hey, good for the Rams, and heartbreaking for the Broncos, my gosh.
Gerrit I know. My brother and my son are both huge Bronco fans. So, Dallin's a huge Bronco fan, and he and Kai were texting each other fast and fierce. There were some very cry-y-faced texts in the second half when it seemed like the Bills were gonna win.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit And when they came back, boy, they were ecstatic, and they're jumping up and down right as Kai gets the information on his phone that Phonix has broken his ankle and he's out.
Richard Yeah. And he broke his ankle in the same way that I would imagine I would break my ankle.
Gerrit Yeah. Trying to kneel down.
Richard Just doing anything. Yeah.
Gerrit Just walking. I tried to walk across the road. You are, you did actually, I believe, break an elbow or hand or something, just walking away from a BYU game.
Richard Yeah. Anyone can fall down the stairs. I fell up the stairs, hit my hand on just the railing, and went full stigmata, broken hand right in the middle of my hand.
Gerrit Stigmata. Well, that's enough for the sports recap. We're looking forward to March Madness. Can you imagine what this podcast is like for March Madness?
Richard It's going to be so irritating. We're so sorry to everyone.
Gerrit Yes, yes. But also, I did pick that game. I picked the National Championship game dead on. Six points. Yes, I work with the mafia.
Richard Well, Garry, we actually have, we have quite a few things to hit here in the early goings on before the Phebe Draper Palmer. Actually, maybe I should get into the Phebe Draper Palmer brown mill deal.
Gerrit Let's just dig right into that Phebe Draper Palmer brown.
Richard Yes, we'll start with Amber. I have been litning for years and finally got caught up and heard you're considering another live event. I would love to join for a live recording. Excited to hear back. Then we got another one from Trudy. Are you teasing about living in Layton, or is it real? Where do you get tickets?
Gerrit Oh, a live event in Layton?
Richard Yeah, this is live, or live.
Gerrit First of all, Richard does live in Layton. I mean, notice I live in Spanish Fork. How many live events have we had in Spanish Fork?
Richard Well, we do record in person sometimes.
Gerrit In Layton as well?
Richard It's true, actually.
Gerrit Sometimes.
Richard No, this is nice. It's funny. It's like when Dick Cheney was put in charge of President Bush's vice president search committee. And he looked high, and he looked low.
Gerrit And he's like, you know what? I am by far the most qualified.
Richard He looked in the mirror and he said, you know what? I had to find a location. And Gerrit, I looked high, and I looked low. And sure enough, it's three miles from my house.
Gerrit It's interesting. I mean, at this point, the next live event will be like in your yard. It'll just be in your backyard.
Richard But we will be doing a live event.
Gerrit So we're going to be doing a live event. Did we get any other emails on that live event?
Richard We did. We did. Also, it says, yes, do it, bring merch. Also, how about like South Davis County, like Centerville, Farmington, Bountiful. Sorry if you don't want to drive, Richard, but we're paying to go. So maybe it would be nice, which is that-
Gerrit Your plea has fallen on deaf ears. Because Centerville would be closer for me as well. And, you know, we know some of the politicians there. They would like-
Richard We know some of the power brokers at Centerville. Yes.
Gerrit But Richard, he can't possibly be bothered to drive more than three minutes away from his house.
Richard So it's a great location.
Gerrit It is a great location. But that being said, we are going to do a live event. This one's going to be a little different. The last time, it was fairly inexpensive because we got the venue very, very inexpensive. This venue is a little bit more upscale, although a good rate on it. And also the other point of the event is to help raise money for the Sweetwater Rescue to get more people to the temple. And the next upcoming temple trip is with Saints of the Church in Kenya. And so the ticket prices are going to be more because we're paying more for a venue, and we're also trying to get a considerable amount of that money in donation. So like always, we don't have the largest venue because I guess the Delta Center came back and said it wasn't available that day.
Richard Well, yeah, the mammoth were playing.
Gerrit So yeah, that was, you know, we thought we could get away with it. But it's going to be held in Layton, and it's going to be $25 a ticket, and then it will be through Eventbrite. And we'll put a link. Richard, will we actually put a link?
Richard I mean, it would be on brand to not put a link, but we want to do it, so I'll actually put a link.
Gerrit We're going to try to put a link into it. So when you look at your podcast description for this episode, there'll be a link if you want to go. I will say, I know it's a weird thing to say that it will sell out, because when you listen to this podcast, you're thinking there's no possible way. Anyone would do this for free, let alone donate money to Saints in Africa for it. I mean, they wouldn't do it for any reason. But last time, it did happen to quite a few people, that they thought, oh, I'll just wait and buy some tickets, and they were gone so fast. And so I would recommend, if you do want to go, the place is limited. It's not like we can just say, oh no, 300 people, we can't. But it's limited, it's only 200 people that can fit in there. And so if you want to go, I recommend hopping on and grabbing some tickets. We'll record a live podcast. Hopefully the topic is a good one, and it's not as bad as our normal podcast.
Gerrit We'll probably be on Gaddy Aunt Robert's Part 11 by then, I don't know. And then we will- February 28th.
Richard Yeah, so it's February 28th. So yeah, it won't be the 11th, but it'll be, you know, 8th, something like that.
Gerrit Yeah, Gaddy Aunt Robert's 8th. Yeah, I figured this spirit world. But so anyway, we really encourage you to do that. And then also one last housekeeping thing. We had some people cancel for our 2026 tour that goes to Kirtland and Palmyra. And so I know we received a lot of inquiries from people saying, oh, why are they sold out? Why are they sold out? We just put back up on the website. There are some limited availability there. If you do want to come, and again, those will probably go pretty quickly. So it's June, but you can see that on the website. And maybe I'll have a link to that again in the...
Richard Yeah, I'll put a link there. So it's June 14th through the 20th, flying into Cleveland, flying out of the Baltimore.
Gerrit We're starting in Cleveland this time, going to the Kirtland Temple, going to all the Kirtland sites, and then going to Niagara Falls, going to all the Palmyra sites, going to Harmony, going to the Gettysburg Battlefield, and then going to Fort McHenry, and ending off that way. So we'd love to have you join us, and if you can. And let's transition, though, to the Gadianton Robbers.
Richard Well, so there was one more email.
Gerrit Oh, yes.
Richard Yes, let me pull that up here. It comes to us from Zach.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Before that. This is from Zach. Hello, Dr. LeDuc and Dr. Dirkmaat. This is the... Let me move it here. I had to increase the size on account of the blindness.
Gerrit Richard already has it at 32-point font.
Richard 48. I'm not kidding. It's legit 48 font.
Gerrit It's really 48? Oh, yeah.
Richard No, dude, I can't see anything. I can't see anything unless...
Gerrit He's wearing his glasses right now.
Richard I am wearing my glasses. This is from Zach. Hello, Dr. LeDuc and Dr. Dirkmaat. This is the former Elder Abel. I was sure this podcast was hardly surviving, but alas, there is a staggering amount of Litners in Mississippi. I haven't even listened to a single minute of the episode.
Gerrit Which is what we said. This is what we said. We said there's no possible way he's listening anymore. He only listened because he had nothing else to do.
Richard Well, it's my son Rigdon, right? When you have nothing else to do, it's okay. I haven't even listened to a single minute of the episode, but I'm just being updated of every instance that my name graces the podcast. I regret to inform that I'm not a member of the stake presidency quite yet, but I have given so many talks. I've tried to avoid the high counselors because they seem hell bent on me taking them or taking me to random wards and branches. This past Sunday, I gave a talk to a branch with 17 people in attendance. I also unexpectedly blessed the sacrament. When I realized no one was moving, when the sacrament hymns started playing. Safe to say, the church in Mississippi is thriving. I'm not sure whether or not to give an update on my dating life, because I'd rather steer clear of any women who listen to this talk.
Gerrit Wow. Elder Abel, shots fired.
Richard That's very funny.
Gerrit I know you're not Elder Abel anymore, but I'm just going to call you Elder Abel because by the time this drops, you might be a member of the Seventh.
Richard He might. He might be. Yeah. That is the biggest of red flags. Not to mention my chances are already low. Now that all the Litners think I know the population of geographic regions like a freak, I promise I am not. Of the 2,960,000 people in Mississippi, I'd like to think that I'm more normal. In all seriousness, thank you. Thank y'all. So we got to... Hold on now.
Gerrit He's back in Mississippi.
Richard Yeah, he is. I've transitioned into another stage here. I had it all set up. I lost him at the Y'all.
Gerrit I feel like we're gonna buy Richard a teleprompter. The real reason that we're fundraising is to buy him a teleprompter that he can just feed giant words into.
Richard In all seriousness, thank y'all so much for all you've done and impact of your testimonies. Your podcast has helped me increase my understanding of the gospel and grow. I love for the Saviour's Restored Church. I don't have any questions, but I'd just like to say thank you for making my mission so fun and blessing the lives of so many. Yours truly, President Abel of the Mississippi Stake.
Gerrit That's hilarious, he's like the president. Elder Abel, you're awesome. Hopefully you someday start listening to this again, because clearly any girl worth dating or marrying will be listening to the podcast.
Richard Oh, there's no question about it. Well, so the last email that we had was from a Litner, Stephen, who emailed in about the Gaddiad and Robbers and some of the stories that he heard as a lad. I think that people used the Gaddiad and Robbers being down in the... What was it? That kind of...
Gerrit Short Creek? Short Creek, it'd be Short Creek, Arizona, but not in Idaho, it wouldn't be. It'd be Short Creek.
Richard Right. So the idea of the...
Gerrit We've talked about this, right? They call them Crix on your side of the state too, right? Oh, 100%.
Richard Okay. How do you spell Crix? C-R-E-E-K, Crix.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Anyway, so he heard all kinds of stories about these Gaddiad and Robbers being down there. And apparently it worked. There was vandalism and things down there, and so they just used it as a thing to scare kids away.
Gerrit It tells the story of a bunch of rogue polygamist teenagers that kept vandalizing his grandfather's ranch until they talked to the local polygamist leaders. And the polygamist leader said, Well, we'll let them know that there's evil spirits of Gaddiad and Robbers up there in that canyon, and then they won't come back. And they never did.
Richard The best part about the e-mail to me is that the polygamist hooligans.
Gerrit Yeah, it is. They're like, well, I mean, one of the jets, they're like snapping their fingers. They're like, when you're a polyg, you're a polyg all the way from your first nut cigarette.
Richard Anyway, they would go fishing with dynamite in the pond, much like Crocodile Dundee too. Very nice.
Gerrit Well, so we know that we captured some people's attention with that. And a lot of people have questions about the spirit world. So we shared last time, again, if you're just tuning in, I promise the podcast is better than this. And that also is untrue. But we talked about it in the first part. Some of Joseph's early teachings, we also shared from some of the Gospel Principles Manual and the Brigham Young Manuals, some discussion about the Spirit World. And I wanted to pick up there, in part because, you know, what better thing to do at this point than to quote what a Calvinist would have to say? You think, Richard, is that?
Richard That's always the best thing to do.
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, so as I said, this really actually is a question even among Christians about the immediate change in the Spirit World. So, let me give you, I'm going to read just a very small part of what the great Calvinist theologian, RC. Sproul, said. Talking about that point, from Luke 23, 43, and as I said last time, this is going to be the go-to of any Protestant you ever talk to about what happens when you die. They will all, and this is for two reasons, right? One, immediacy, right? That you immediately go to heaven or hell. But two, you clearly don't have to be baptized to be saved, like the Catholics say that you do, and then read in small parentheses and also Mormons, but primarily, as much as we flatter ourselves, they're far more concerned with how many Catholics there are in the world generally, right?
Gerrit Because there's a billion Catholics. And so this is how he explains it. He says, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise. That's quoting Luke 23, 43. In the course of his crucifixion, much was said about the thieves that were crucified beside Jesus. In the initial stages, both of them joined in mockery of Jesus and with the crowds who were saying he saved others, but himself, he cannot save. If you are really the son of God, come down from the cross. And finally, one of the thieves had more of this than he could stomach, and something happened suddenly, transcendentally, supernaturally, as the Spirit of God opened his eyes, and he said to the malefactor that was being executed with him, Hey, hey isn't actually in the Bible.
Richard He's paraphrased. Well, maybe it's in the NIV, though.
Gerrit It's the new revised Standard version. Hey guys, it says, hey, we're guilty of the crimes that we have committed. We deserve this execution, but this man is innocent. He then turned to Jesus and he said, Remember me when you come into your kingdom. If ever there was a deathbed conversion, there it was that afternoon on the cross next to Jesus. And Jesus gave his personal assurance of salvation to the thief, saying, I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Okay, so that sounds like an immediacy, but Sproul, unlike your classic, I'm standing on the street corner, handing out, you know, say the sinner's prayer pamphlet preachers. He is a theologian who knows that there are problems with that. That there are problems with, like we talked about last episode. So if I immediately go to heaven, or I immediately go to hell, then what happens when I am resurrected?
Gerrit So he says, there are those, historically, who have argued that the souls of people who die in Christ do not go immediately to the presence of God to paradise or to heaven. Notice, he's saying paradise and heaven are the same place. That's Standard Christian Theology. But rather, they remain in a state of suspended animation, a kind of psycho panachea or soul sleep that endures until the last judgment, when they will finally be restored to life. And it will seem to them that it is all in a twinkly given eye, just as when you go to bed at night and wake up in the morning. You have no real sense of how many hours have passed during that intervening time. But Jesus Gaines says that argument by saying to the thief today, not simply after the last judgment, today you will be with me in paradise. So he's frankly attacking primarily, I mean, there are others that espouse it, but primarily a Jehovah's Witness talking point, right?
Gerrit That you don't exist in a conscious state after you die until the resurrection. In which case, where is the soul after you die? Well, it sleeps until the resurrection. You aren't animate. You don't know what's going on until the resurrection. And he's speaking hard against that.
Richard Okay. I mean, where is he claiming to get? I mean, I'm sure he's claiming that from where?
Gerrit Well, so he's, as far as the fact that today that you'll be with...
Richard Today you'll be with me in Paradise. I get that, but like the... I mean, never has anything ever been uttered that is more hung on than that line, it seems.
Gerrit It is. It is. It is. There's a couple of... Look, for Protestants, today you will be with me in Paradise. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, right? It is, by grace that you are saved, not works, and that none of yourselves, less than any man should boast, and then Romans, those are the most important scriptures there are, because they encapsulate their theology. That you're saved by faith, has nothing to do with any work that you do. How do we know that even Jesus believed that? Because Jesus is... I mean, look, when you read the Gospels, Jesus keeps talking a lot about doing works. He keeps saying, many will say it to me, Lord, Lord, right? At that day. Jesus is the one who says, just saying I'm the Lord won't save you. And so the thief on the cross for them is proof positive that salvation can't possibly have any works that are associated with it.
Richard But the suspended part is the part, where is that?
Gerrit Well, because it's today. This is what he says. Today, you will be with me in Paradise. Not simply after the last judgment, but today. So if you take Paradise to Mean Heaven, then you will be with me. I mean, Sproul doesn't respond to that. He pushes back, right? Because he knows that people will push back on him. Let me tell you how the advocates of soul sleep answer that. They will say, well, no, no, no, there's no real punctuation there in the Greek text. All Jesus is saying, I'm telling you today. That is, today is the day I'm telling you these things. That is honestly a pretty bad argument, right? It's kind of like when we were talking about whether or not John was still going to live, that it was like, no, no, Jesus wasn't saying, what is it to you if he tarry till I come? He was just saying, hey, John, stand over by that pillar while I talk to Peter here for a second. Hurry, write that down.
Gerrit You know, that's essentially their argument. Their argument is that Jesus is like, hey, I'm going to tell you something right now. You're going to go with me to paradise, but not like today to paradise. Eventually, you're going with me to paradise. And part of this is because they're taking the term paradise to mean heaven. They're taking them as equivalencies, right? Now, one of the odd parts about that, though, from the Bible, and you'll notice Sproul doesn't talk about it here, is we have from Peter where Jesus actually does go, right? He might have told the thief on the cross that he is going to paradise, but what does Jesus actually say to, well, what does Peter say about where Jesus was? That he went and he preached to the spirits who were in prison. So, Jesus is telling the thief on the cross, today you're going with me to paradise.
Gerrit Peter is telling us that, in fact, Jesus is preaching to the spirits that are in prison. Well, how can both of those things be true if paradise means heaven? I mean, is Jesus just like dropping him off there? Like, hey, I've got some errands to run. Sorry, I know this is a bad time for you.
Richard That's the NIV. But, you know, is there a possible interpretation that they don't mean, like, they mean people in prison or that there is, like, that people are spirits or they're going to Rikers Island?
Gerrit I mean, look, this one is interpreted many different ways. And part of the reason why it's interpreted many different ways is it doesn't make sense. It's in Catholic theology, right? A lot of Protestant theology, you can just, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, if you're on the right or you're on the left very strongly politically, I already know what you think about what someone just said or did, regardless of what they just said or did. I already know. Because if you happen to be someone who can't stand Joe Biden, and he said it, then you have a problem with it. And it doesn't even matter what he'd be like. I'm glad we're all here as Americans. You're like, nope, nope, nope. What a terrible person. And the same thing on the right with, you know, someone on the left looking at someone on the right. Like, in a lot of ways, Protestant responses really are whatever the Catholic Church has taught must be false.
Gerrit And this is, remember, and it's not surprising because the idea of purgatory is the jumping off point for the Reformation. So it is not a surprise that of the places where Protestants draw their line in the sand, the immediate judgment is one of them. Because Catholics are the ones saying, no, you go to a temporary place, right? So if you go to 1 Peter chapter 3, and you all know this from your missions, right? Well, Elder Abel's probably already forgot it while he's sipping my ties somewhere in Biloxi. But I don't have any idea where he's from. But, For Christ hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened or alive in the spirit, by which he also went and preached under the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was up preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Gerrit Now, they especially don't like this interpretation, because the next verse is, the like figure whereunto even baptism doth now save us. Oh boy. Let's not read 1 Peter ever, because first of all, you can't be saved by baptism. You're only saved by a thief on the cross, right? It's only by having faith. So you will have, I mean, there's a lot of ways that people have deflected this. And one way is, well, when he talks about preaching the spirits in prison, he means those who are spiritually, he went and preached also to the spirits in prison, meaning he declared his gospel even to those people in Noah's time, that they were spiritually cut off. That's what he's saying. Not that he actually wants to help them. In Catholic theology, this is called the harrowing of hell. That's kind of a cool thing, right?
Richard Yeah, that is kind of cool.
Gerrit The harrowing of hell is Jesus going to hell and saying, all right, everybody, looks like you probably should have listened to Noah. So there's actually some, you could probably look up and see some great images, some great Catholic images of the harrowing of hell. But this, these things, obviously, they are at least somewhat contradictory. And so, you know, Sproal is going to continue. That if you ever see an example of torturous exegesis of scripture, there it is. As if Jesus dying, gasping for breath, where every word that he utters in his dying state costs precious oxygen, that he's going to waste that oxygen by telling the thief, what day is it that he's speaking to him? That's absurd. The point of this day is to the thief, you are not going to have to wait. As soon as your eyelids close in death, and my eyelids close in death, we will be together, not on crosses of wood, but in paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, in the presence of God.
Richard Gerrit, everyone needs to stop listening right now and do a Google search image on the harrowing of hell.
Gerrit For the harrowing of hell.
Richard It's fantastic.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, look, when am I ever just saying things that aren't okay most of the time?
Richard No, no, my gosh, no. You never just say things. You picked the Indiana game perfectly. The thing is that like the medieval harrowing of hell is great. Oh, my gosh. It's just like shoving people into places with pitchforks and there's dragons.
Gerrit You've got a giant spear, and you're just boating.
Richard So great, dude.
Gerrit Well, so you do actually have... My point isn't saying, Jesus says, you're going to be with me in paradise. Peter says that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. And I know the gymnastics that they're doing to say, well, no, it's people that are spiritually dead. Yeah, except he says it's the ones that were disobedient when Noah was alive. That makes it a lot harder to be like, to explain. So I have had, I've heard Protestants say, well, he went after he went to heaven, he then went to hell to essentially to condemn the people that were already there.
Richard I think that they got it already. I mean, it's just like, jeez, lay up.
Gerrit Yeah, well, it's like super hell. Like we said, it's like the, it's like the next level of hell.
Richard But so super hell hasn't even come yet because they're about to get resurrected and have that body.
Gerrit Yeah, and get their body back so that their flesh can be more effectively burned off for eternity.
Richard Yeah, that's, you know what, it is actually, there is, you and I were talking about this before the podcast.
Gerrit In our pre-show.
Richard It was mostly just you bragging about picking the Indiana game right.
Gerrit It was mostly that.
Richard Mostly that. But that because the gospel, there are simple aspects to the gospel that are beautiful and that are wonderful. And, but sometimes, this is actually a perfect example of that. We, I think we under, I know I do. Underestimate just the, if Joseph Smith is making it up, my goodness, is that brilliant? To answer these questions.
Gerrit Joseph is receiving revelations that answer questions that Christians can't figure out an answer to, or they have to come up with some kind of convoluted answer like we're talking about for 2,000 years. Because the scriptures do talk about that. How do you reconcile it? How do you reconcile someone having to be baptized but not having to be baptized? How do you reconcile someone going to heaven but not actually going to heaven? Well, I'll tell you what. Joseph Smith reconciles. Here is from Wilford Woodrow's Journal, where Joseph Smith's giving a discourse at the 11th of June, 1843. Men will say, I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times. But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of God that are retained in the heavens, that are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared, they will be the first to stone you and to put you to death.
Gerrit Now, I got to tell you, that is very, very, very true. A lot of people really believe that they would accept anything that God teaches. And those same people will let you know where President Oaks is wrong about what he said in general conference. I agree in the sense that the gospel can get to a place where it's simple. Look, obviously, the gospel of Jesus Christ is that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was resurrected, and that because of that, all of us can be saved, and all of us will be resurrected. But the point of this life is exaltation, not just salvation from death. Jesus already gave us that. So while it is simple, these complexities of theology that the Christian world wrestles over, they exist for a reason.
Gerrit How can Jesus both be going to preach to the spirits in hell, and also be in paradise? How can both of those things be true? And so you end up just discounting one or the other. You end up saying, well, he didn't really go to hell, even though it says that he did, because he wouldn't, and Catholics believe that. And then if you're Catholic, you're like, well, I know he said that the thief would go, but what he really meant was, he'd go to purgatory, which the only people who are baptized would go to purgatory. But I mean, so it's by discounting some part of the scripture. So Joseph is talking about it here. Look, I'm about to teach you something that's going to be very hard for you to accept. Remember, Joseph's entire audience is Protestant. There's like a couple of Jewish people, three Catholics and the rest are Protestant. I mean, everybody is a Protestant convert in America.
Gerrit He says, it was the same principle that crucified the Lord, Jesus Christ. I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said about the sayings of Jesus on the cross to the thief, saying, this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise. The commentators or translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? Paradise is a modern word. It does not answer to at all to the original that Jesus made use of. There is nothing in the original in any way that signifies paradise. But it was this day, I will be with thee in the world of spirits. And will teach thee or answer thy inquiries. The thief on the cross was to be with Jesus in the world of spirits.
Gerrit He did not say paradise or heaven. The doctrine of baptism for the dead is clearly shown in the New Testament. Now, why Joseph is talking this way is there are a lot of people pushing back against the doctrine of baptism for the dead. I know that that's so foreign to you that every person listening, except for, we probably have a few Catholic listeners that are like, no, that sounds, I see why they're pushing back. But to you, baptism for the dead is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists because it means every person who has ever lived has an equal opportunity at exaltation. The problem is, Christian theology has hammered the top of the head of that nail for 2,000 years.
Gerrit That you have to accept Jesus in this life to be saved. And so Joseph is responding to Protestant claims. The Protestants are responding to him, saying, There's no point of baptism for the dead, because the second someone dies, they're already in heaven, or they're already in hell. What are you baptizing them for? Are you going to pull them up out of hell? And if they already have faith in Jesus, they're already saved because of the thief on the cross. So Joseph goes directly at this. The thief on the cross was to be with Jesus in the world of spirits. In the spirit world. And you're thinking, what does this have to do with our Gadianton and Roberts question? Well, this has a lot to do with where our theology comes from. That when people die, they don't go immediately to heaven or hell.
Gerrit They go to the world of spirits. Now, there's honestly Latter-day Saints listening to me right now, who are feeling uncomfortable about that. Because they want to say the same thing that their Baptist friend says. That when someone dies, that they're in the presence of Jesus. Now we know in some way, the righteous are able to be in the presence of God. So you can still believe that. But you gotta be careful that you don't believe it to the point where you miss the beauty of the doctrine that exists. And that is that when we die, we all go to the spirit world. Those who are righteous with this beautiful knowledge, interacting with the Lord Jesus, then beginning to declare this gospel to other people who didn't have it.
Gerrit And then because of this beautiful gospel, baptisms and other temple ordinances take place for those people on the other side. Take place for the people on the other side with people here going to the temple. As Joseph said, with baptism that is clearly shown in the New Testament, if the doctrine is not good, then throw away the New Testament. But if it is the word of God, then let the doctrine be acknowledged. Now, this is what Joseph's making a good Bible bash point here. The Bible is absolutely the word of God. Every single word was written by the hand of God. Every single word in the Bible is absolutely true. The only truth comes from the Bible. Why then are they baptized for the dead? If the dead that rise not at all, well, they weren't really doing baptisms for the dead. It's funny because when you listen to New Testament scholars who are not partisan, so New Testament scholars who are agnostic or atheistic, they will say directly that the doctrine of baptism, they'll say, look, there's no way of getting around this the way that it's written.
Gerrit Paul is clearly writing about a practice that is approved of baptisms for the dead. He is not, as people will try to say, well, he was just talking about how when you baptize the people that are dead in spirit, that then it brings them back to God. That's not what it says. It's not what it says at all. Right? So Joseph here is, I think, a little frustrated. Hey, the Bible is absolutely the word of God, and every single word is the word of God, except for when it talks about things that we don't understand. And then we just pretend it's not even in there. And that's what Joseph is saying that they're doing. Look, it's in the New Testament. The same Paul that you are quoting, that you are saved by faith and grace alone, is the same Paul saying that they're performing baptisms for the dead. So why does the one verse from Paul matter, but the other verse from Paul doesn't? And Joseph continues. He says, if it is the word of God, then let the doctrine be acknowledged.
Gerrit And it was one reason why Jesus said, how oft would I have gathered you together that they might attend to the ordinance of baptism for the dead, as well as the other ordinances of the priesthood, revelations, et cetera. This was the case on the day of Pentecost. These blessings were poured out upon the disciples on that occasion. There has also been much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it. But what is hell? It is another modern term. It is taken from Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew. And the true signification of it is the world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison. It is all one. It is a world of spirits.
Gerrit The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits. I mean, I don't know if anyone else can feel that, but boy, I wish I was there present for Joseph preaching that. You know what though? I probably would be one of the faithless people that would have been like, yeah, but that can't possibly be that. I'm gonna be a congregationalist again. I mean, I don't know. I probably would have been that. I have so little faith in my ability to discern truth that, you know, Joseph starts teaching something. I'm like, no, no, that's not what I thought when I first started reading the Book of Mormon. He goes on, and maybe I'll finish his sermon here because it does speak to this idea of what happens in the afterlife, but says one, I believe in one hell and in one heaven, and all are equally miserable or equally happy. And again, that's the Protestant doctrine of when you die, you immediately go to heaven or hell.
Gerrit Joseph has just said, listen, when Jesus said paradise, he meant the part of the world of spirits where you're a believer. And when Jesus, when the Bible says hell, it really means the part of the world of spirits where you're not a believer, right? That's what it means, but it's all the spirit world. That's what he's trying to teach people. But then he's going to teach you a little bit that comes from Doctrine and Covenants section 76. St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens. He knew a man caught up to the third heaven. And Jesus said there were many mansions in my father's kingdom. Any man may believe Jesus Christ is good and be happy in it, yet not obey his commandments and at last be cut down by his righteous commands. A man of God should be endowed with all wisdom, knowledge, and understanding in order to teach and lead the people. The blind may lead the blind together and they'll both fall into the ditch.
Gerrit I mean, I could go a little further because he's about to get into some pretty heavy doctrine. Should we just pause there?
Richard No, no, let's, no, no, get into it.
Gerrit All right, I mean, this is what you guys paid for, for the free podcast. This is what the missionaries put other missions for. Yeah, that's right. There is, by the way, we've had an explosion of missionaries lately. I don't know if Richard's just not updating the missionary emails as quickly as they're coming in, because, look, it is hundreds of emails. And Richard is a father. Richard's also trying to figure out what the line on a game is before he puts in a missionary email. We had this week about a half a dozen missionaries send us saying, hey, I want the podcast. I just got my call. And then they included pictures of their actual call. We would be sitting here saying, nope, that guy's a liar. There's no possible way he's going on a mission.
Richard The only people we think are liars are pregnant women.
Gerrit No, I think what we have established, it's their husbands that are lying about it.
Richard That's funny that they're... So the evidence is in the missionary.org email.
Gerrit All we need is the missionary email, but we had about, it was four or five, just in the last couple of days, that sent us pictures of their entire call. And now I know their home addresses.
Richard So actually, that is actually kind of cool. I do get caught up in missionary season as people start reading their calls and getting all excited. I think I've mentioned this before, we're doing some mission prep stuff in our ward. Did I call it T-Incumstotts on here? I can't remember if I did or not.
Gerrit It was something like that. Yeah.
Richard Yeah. The Michael Scott-Totts, Scott's Tots.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Anyway, that didn't take off as well. That name didn't, but I do have imaging for it. Anyway, but we had like 40 kids at our house on Sunday, going through stuff. It's just, you can't help but to get excited about it. So I'm glad that they're doing that. And I'll get them added sometime in August.
Gerrit Well, back to Joseph's sermon here. Not only has he just blown up heaven and hell, not only has he just, as he argued for bounties or the dead, he's now going to take a quick step into Trinitarian theology. Now, it's funny, my son on his mission, his companion is a convert to the church. And he doesn't have a problem, but he has a lot of friends back home who are certain that he's going to burn in hell because he became a Mormon. And so, you know, he's like, this is what they say about Trinitarian theology. Well, here's Joseph arguing about it. There is much said concerning God and the Godhead, et cetera. The scriptures say that there is God's many and Lord's many. The teachers of the day say that the father is God and the son is God and the Holy Ghost is God and that they are all in one body and one God.
Gerrit Jesus says or prays that those that the father had given him out of the world might be made one in us as we are one. But if they were stuffed all into one person, they would make a great God. If I were to testify that the world was wrong on this point, it would be true, Peter says, that Jesus Christ sat on the right hand of God. Any person that has seen the heavens open knows that there are three personages in the heavens. Now, so here, Joseph is not only appealing to the Bible, right? Because Jesus prays and says, Father, make them one as you and I are one. But he doesn't actually think that James is going to meld into Peter, right? It'd be one gigantic apostle. It's going to be like on the old Transformers, when the Constructicons would merge together to make Devastator.
Richard Yeah, I actually, I did that in a PowerPoint presentation, where I had the apostles, and they all kind of came together to form one mega apostle. Yeah. It was to illustrate the point that you're discussing.
Gerrit Yeah, I see why there's so many missionaries who come to you for their pre-missionary teachings. This is, you already had it. But there's three in heaven that holds the key of power. The father hath powered himself, so hath the son in himself. Then the father has some day laid down his body and taken it again, so he has a body of his own. So here Joseph is declaring directly, the father has a body, right? It is the weird part of Trinitarian theology that the argument is God doesn't have a body. He has no body, parts, or passions. But isn't Jesus God? Yes, Jesus is God. Does Jesus have a body? Yes. So the father doesn't have a body, and the father is God. Jesus is also God, but does have a body, but God doesn't have a body. But Jesus God does have a body, because that's the whole point, right? So it's one of those contradictions, right?
Richard Yeah, you're getting it.
Gerrit Yeah, when you're saying that doesn't make sense. Exactly. So, so has the son a body of his own, and so each one will be in their own body. Many of the sects cry out, I have a testimony of Jesus. I have the Spirit of God. But away with Joe Smith. He says he's a prophet, but there's to be no prophets, nor revelations in the last days. But stop, sir. The revelator says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So by your own mouth, you are condemned. So he's, you know, going pretty hard on this about the fact that God does have a body. But the part that I love about this is anyone who has seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens. How does Joseph, why is Joseph Smith so certain that Jesus and the father are two separate individuals who have bodies?
Gerrit Because he has seen and talked to them multiple times. And what does Stephen say when he has the heavens open? I see the father and Jesus Christ on his right hand, right? The people who have actually seen the heavens describe the father and the son being separate. And I know that's a little bit outside of our realm of talking about the spirit world, but here, it's important to note, look, Joseph isn't just like a better version of John Calvin and Martin Luther. Joseph is the prophet of the restoration. You know, if you were going to start a religion during the second great awakening, literally the worst possible thing you could do is what Joseph Smith did. Literally everyone around him is saying, there is no truth at all except in the Bible. Joseph's like, actually, here's the Book of Mormon. Okay, so that's a pretty big stumbling block.
Gerrit And if you don't believe me, go talk to your Protestant friend and ask them if they'll read the Book of Mormon. Let's see what they say. We could get a couple of emails on that. Just ask, hey, would you mind reading the Book of Mormon? And we'll get a good response.
Richard There was actually a fairly popular Instagram reel that went around this last week of a famous pastor that took the Book of Mormon and threw it in the trash and was unnecessarily aggressive with it.
Gerrit Yeah, and we already know that that's what they're gonna say, right? So the number one principle of Christianity in Joseph's time is all truth only came from the Bible. And then Joseph Smith produced other scripture multiple times, right? On top of revelations, right? The entire Protestant world was clamoring all over themselves to become less Catholic than their Protestant neighbor. Like Bill claims he's a true Christian, but I heard that he has a Bible that has the Apocrypha in it. And the Catholics are the ones who have the Bible, the Apocrypha in it. So that proves that he's like just like a shadow Catholic. Like they are desperately trying to claim that they have no connection to any idea of priesthood authority, of works being necessary for salvation. And Joseph Smith comes out swinging.
Gerrit Actually, not only is baptism essential, here's a bunch of other ordinances that are also essential. If you were to sit down in a, in like, you know, I'm sure you've been in these meetings, Richard. You sit down, it's like the business planning meeting where people are spit balling ideas. Like, you know, what's going to help our brand? Legitimately, every single thing that Joseph Smith comes up with would not be, it would not make it through the product development phase, right? Because the entire Christian world, not just Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, the entire Christian world is agreed on one thing. And that is Trinitarian theology, the entire Christian world. And Joseph starts his religion by saying, actually, God and Jesus are separate people.
Gerrit Think about how much less resistance he would have had if he just would have adopted Trinitarian theology. But he couldn't just adopt Trinitarian theology because he knew that God and Jesus were separate beings because he talked to them. There's a reason why they told him that their creeds were an abomination in his sight, because they were they were not causing people to understand who God is. As Joseph will say in another sermon, if you don't understand God, I would say you have no salvation. If you don't know God, you have to know him. Any person that's seen the heavens open knows that there's three personages in heaven. And Joseph there is not just making a biblical argument. He's making an argument from experience. I have seen God, and that's how I know that there's God the Father and God the Son. Interestingly, Joseph in another sermon, I know we're almost out of time.
Gerrit Richard, he's glancing. He starts glancing over like, I've got a thing. I've got, there's some chariot racing on Channel 474 that I've got to parlay on. Give me a second. I've got to look over at it. But in another 1843 sermon, Joseph Smith is talking about salvation in the next life. And so I'm going to read this. I know this is not directly related. Like most questions we get, I'm going to give context on top of context, on top of context, and then never answer the question. That's what we do. In fact, if we had a tagline, it would be context on top of context, but never answering the question. Standard of Truth Podcast. Also, you know, what was the line? Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies. The first chapter of Second Peter hints of things which are nowhere written.
Gerrit There are things which pertain to the glory of God and the airship of God with Christ, which are not written in the Bible. Again, Joseph's striking out. I mean, there's a lot of truths that are in the Bible. When the entire Christian world is saying, no, every single truth has to be in the Bible. Actually, there's a lot of things not written in the Bible. The Bible itself declares that there's things not written in the Bible, right? The Bible, if all of the words and sayings of Jesus were written, I suppose the world itself could not contain them. I mean, you could just write that off as being flowery. But what if it's literal, like everything else you read in the Bible, that Jesus has done so much that you can't write about all of them. The spirits in the eternal world are diverse from each other, as are as each other here in their dispositions. Now, think about that. People are diverse.
Gerrit Aspiring, ambitious, as man is, is liable to enemies there as well as here. It is necessary for him to be placed beyond their power in order to be saved. This is done by our taking bodies and keeping our first estate. I forgot to mention, this is Franklin Richards' journal that I'm quoting. I said what it was, but I didn't say what the source was there, sorry. This is done by our taking bodies and keeping our first estate, and having the power of the resurrection pass upon us, whereby we are enabled to gain the ascendancy over disembodied spirits. The mortification of Satan consists in his not being permitted to take a body. He sometimes gets possession of a body, but when the proven authorities turn him out of doors, he finds it was not his, but a stolen one.
Gerrit So Joseph is also making the point here, and he makes it actually in several other places, but I'm going to move on because I don't want to belabor the point, which I've already belabored two episodes. I haven't even got to the good stuff yet. I've got some good stuff coming. I mean, okay, stuff coming.
Richard This has been good stuff.
Gerrit I might have the word Gadianton at some point in the next episode.
Richard Brigham Young.
Gerrit Oh, we're coming for you. We've got some Brigham Young. We've got all kinds of stuff we're bringing. But Joseph is going to teach that one of the reasons why we needed to gain a body, like you did there, to keep our first estate, is it permanently, eventually, it permanently puts us out of the power of those evil fallen spirits. It's part of your ability over those evil spirits. Now, these are the ones we assume we're talking about that are fallen from the world of spirits. And the question is more about what about these evil Gadiantons, right? Well, so as we leave, remember what Joseph said. When you die, wicked or righteous, you go to the spirit world. Now, we understand that there's a division in that spirit world.
Gerrit We don't understand what it looks like. Now, I get it when you draw it on the board. You draw a circle, then draw a line through it, then maybe you draw a bunch more lines on one side, because that's spirit prison. And on the other side, you like draw a cloud or something, because that's paradise. But they appear to be a difference in your state of glory and happiness, rather than a state, than a place. That what makes someone be in this prison in the next life is their false thoughts, their false beliefs, and their sins that they haven't repented for. And as Joseph will teach, as soon as a spirit gains knowledge, it can be saved. That in this life or the next, when he consents to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, he is saved.
Gerrit Yeah, the gospel is simple. But that alone is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists in all of written Christianity. That the billions upon billions upon billions of people who leave this world not knowing about Jesus, not knowing about the gospel, that they can be saved when they accept Jesus in the next life. It is as Brigham Young says, will they be saved? Yes. How are they saved? By the atonement of Jesus Christ. Latter-day saints are not denigrating the atonement of Jesus Christ by saying people can accept him after this life. We are expanding the atonement of Jesus Christ to encapsulate the entirety of humanity. Not just the lucky and predestined few. Not just the couple that happened to be born in a place where Christianity is preached. But every single son and daughter of God.
Gerrit And we'll talk more about this, answering this question, but not answering it on the next episode.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

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Look, I'm not saying that. But I'm also not, not saying that. Because how else could you get that dead on?

GerritBanter

Anyone can fall down the stairs. I fell up the stairs, hit my hand on just the railing, and went full stigmata, broken hand right in the middle of my hand.

RichardBanter

And Gerrit, I looked high, and I looked low. And sure enough, it's three miles from my house.

RichardBanter

The real reason that we're fundraising is to buy him a teleprompter that he can just feed giant words into.

GerritBanter

I mean, is Jesus just like dropping him off there? Like, hey, I've got some errands to run.

GerritBanter

if Joseph Smith is making it up, my goodness, is that brilliant? To answer these questions.

RichardInsight

But to you, baptism for the dead is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists because it means every person who has ever lived has an equal opportunity at exaltation.

GerritInsight

In fact, if we had a tagline, it would be context on top of context, but never answering the question.

GerritBanter

We are expanding the atonement of Jesus Christ to encapsulate the entirety of humanity.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The thief on the cross proves you go straight to heaven when you die, and that baptism isn't needed.
Teaching that people can accept Christ after death makes his atonement smaller.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Joseph Smith taught that the thief on the cross went with Jesus to the world of spirits, which reconciles 'today thou shalt be with me in paradise' with Peter's spirits in prison.

Baptism for the dead means every person who has ever lived has an equal opportunity at exaltation.

Joseph knew the Father and the Son are separate beings because he had seen them: 'Any person that has seen the heavens open knows that there are three personages in the heavens.'

Gaining a body and keeping our first estate places us beyond the power of disembodied evil spirits.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Gerrit's victory lapRichard builds a stinger of Gerrit's Indiana-by-six pick; Gerrit wonders if he's the reincarnated Matthias, and later Richard says the pre-show was mostly bragging (1:27, 2:28, 34:37).
Bears, Raiders and BYURichard loves Fernando Mendoza 'until the Raiders crush his soul,' forgives Caleb Williams, and roots for BYU's Puka Nacua (3:20, 4:40, 5:38).
Full stigmataRichard broke his hand falling up the stairs leaving a BYU game (6:38).
It's at Richard's houseLike Dick Cheney's VP search, Richard looked high and low and found a venue three miles from his house (8:07, 9:31).
48-point fontRichard reads the mailbag at 48-point font with his glasses on; Gerrit wants to fundraise for a teleprompter (14:05, 16:27).
Elder AbelHe hasn't listened, isn't in a stake presidency 'quite yet,' and signs off as President Abel of the Mississippi Stake (14:18, 16:40).
Crick vs. creekShort Creek, and whether they say 'crick' on Richard's side of the state (17:36).
Richard and the missionariesMissionaries are sending pictures of their calls, and Richard will add them 'sometime in August'; his mission prep group almost got called Scott's Tots (49:07, 49:39, 50:07).
Gerrit never answers the question (quickly)'Context on top of context, but never answering the question,' and Gadianton might appear 'at some point in the next episode' (59:19, 1:02:46).
Super hellProtestant hell gets an upgrade when the wicked get their bodies back (34:11).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites Luke 23:43Quick to Help, Slow to JudgeElder Paul H. SinclairElder Sinclair recalls a Primary boy who buttoned his sleeve to his lapel and got stuck, and the little girl who quietly freed him while he himself felt only irritation, a moment that taught him to be quick to help and slow to judge.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Medieval art of the harrowing of hell, which Richard says everyone should look up (32:47).
Joseph Smith's June 11, 1843 discourse in Wilford Woodruff's journal, with its teaching on paradise, hell and the Godhead (35:14).
Soul sleep: who taught it in Christian history and why Sproul argues against it (22:45).
Franklin D. Richards' notes of Joseph's 1843 sermons on spirits, bodies and the first estate (1:01:24).
SOT Litner · S6E4.