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If one of us dies
S6E5 · Gadianton Robbers Part 3 (Brigham Young Sermon)
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Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 5 · 1:04:50

Gadianton Robbers Part 3 (Brigham Young Sermon)

The famous line about Gadianton robbers haunting 'these mountains' comes from Heber C. Kimball, and he said it in a sermon in Centerville, not Southern Utah.

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The question ·

I've been told the same story multiple times with different twists, mainly the location, which is Brigham Young supposedly gave a talk down here and said the Gadianton Robbers still infest this area.

Darren (listener)

Gerrit and Richard joke about what happens to the podcast if one of them dies, which turns into a running bit about Becky plotting Richard's murder. In the mailbag, Nauvoo missionaries share virtual tours, Jake and McKenna announce a big family, a missionary in Omaha can't get YooHoo to freeze even at 27 below, and a listener asks about books that put the Second Coming in order, which Gerrit says matter far less than being prepared. Then, at last, the Gadianton robbers: Gerrit reads an 1856 Brigham Young sermon Wilford Woodruff loved, about spirits remaining near us, and a Heber C. Kimball sermon placing the robbers' spirits in the mountains. He closes with Joseph's own encounters with the adversary's real power, and the promise that we have power over evil spirits.

Who comes upBrigham YoungHeber C. KimballWilford WoodruffJoseph SmithGadiantonKorihorSatan
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If one of us dies

The hosts plan what happens to the podcast without Richard, starting with the upload password he never shared.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit, thanks for having me back.
Gerrit It was touch and go.
Richard It was touch and go.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, so we went through a restructuring process where we were trying to determine whether or not we kept Richard. In the end, we found that since his salary was nothing, it was in the company's best interest to just continue to hemorrhage support and keep him on. But yes, we had you back.
Richard Well, and I haven't told Gerrit what the passwords are to be able to upload the podcast episodes to Apple or Spotify. That's my, that's my, the secret to my sustained success.
Gerrit What happens if you like suddenly die?
Richard I can imagine, you get the news, no, no, no, you get the, I'm going to text it to you now. Now I feel bad. I have a...
Gerrit I mean, I suppose that if one of us passes away, what happens to the podcast?
Richard Well, if you pass away, then this will turn into a behavioral economics podcast.
Gerrit It will just be you teaching your master's course?
Richard Yeah, that's all it will be.
Gerrit And what do we learn about implied referrals from this text?
Richard It will shoot through the floor and no one will listen. And if I die, then we'll continue the podcast on completely as normal.
Gerrit Do you think that I could just take enough of your voice and create an AI you that just asks questions while I...
Richard Asks better questions, makes better sports picks, treats his wife better?
Gerrit Sports picks is just throwing things at a dartboard.
Richard Yeah, cats picking crochet helmets is going to be more accurate. I don't know if you saw the video of that. Very funny.
Gerrit So the Super Bowl is coming up.
Richard It is.
Gerrit So, you know, after the harrowing bye week, there's a great early early Simpsons where they are making fun of the fact that, you know, after winning their respective championship games, it's like an NFL film that they're watching on TV. The teams must endure a harrowing bye week. And that's to them, like sitting around the pool and laughing. I think I believe it's what Homer's watching on TV when he stays home from church, actually.
Richard That's funny. Well, so by the way, we recorded a premium episode of Joseph Smith and the Restoration that aired on Sunday last week. And you made comments about how we needed to wrap it up because I needed to go to a wedding, which I did, a wedding of my niece. And at that wedding, the first thing that my father-in-law said when he walked up is, hey, so how's this going to end with the Gadianton robbers?
Gerrit That's funny.
Richard It's funny. We found something that he is excited to talk about.
Gerrit I said, if there's anything that Quiff is going to be interested in, it's polygamous gang members vandalizing a ranch who are then scared off by the Gadianton robber spirits. I was like, this is, if Quiff had a podcast, that would be the name of his podcast.
Richard So I love my father-in-law. He's about the best man I've ever met. And he's a great guy. And there's a couple things that I know he likes talking about. Twine, the protein count of alfalfa. And I thought those were the only two, but also now Gadianton robbers.
Gerrit You know, you just gotta find where people are at and meet them. You know, speaking of which, I'm supposed to give a shout out to my son, Kai's, his girlfriend's grandfather, apparently big fan of the podcast. My son couldn't care less that I have a podcast. He doesn't listen, he doesn't appreciate it. He's embarrassed by it when we get stopped by people. Someone stopped me at the basketball game last night. In fact, several people did. But Fred, apparently a big-time listener, and Zoe's grandfather, and he listens to the podcast. I actually signed a book for you, Fred, for Kai to give to you. But because he's a teenager and utterly irresponsible, you'll get that sometime after he gets back from his mission and has learned responsibility.
Richard Well, that's very good. Well, Gerrit, should we just jump straight into the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag? We'll save our Super Bowl picks for next week.
Gerrit Well, we should, because we have to, we need to see how the line moves over the course of the bye week.
Richard Yes, yes.
Gerrit You don't want to get in early unless you think that they've made a real mistake in Vegas.
Richard No, no. I believe Seattle is the heavy favorite, but I don't, I actually don't know what the, do you know what it is?
Gerrit I don't, I mean, it, are you okay? How do you not know what the line is?
Richard I had a busy, I've had a busy week, so far. That's a good question.
Gerrit Well, so, I mean, we could also talk about the fact that once again, BYU basketball came really, really, really close to beating the number one team in the country.
Richard Oh, yeah, what a game. Four and a half, Seattle by four and a half.
Gerrit Which is, isn't that what they were, New England was favored at over Denver, right? Was three and a half, four and a half, so something similar. Yeah, I mean, the game obviously just comes down to, it'll come down to whether or not Drake May plays beyond his ability as a second year player, essentially.
Richard Yeah, Seattle's defense is pretty good.
Gerrit Yeah, it's pretty good. But you know what? Even Matthew Stafford had an amazing game and lost.
Richard Yeah, he almost played a perfect game. Yeah, it was incredible.
Gerrit Yeah, but, you know, it's such a big deal. You know, in football, as in life, gigantic mistakes are what cost you everything. Like little mistakes you can make up for. But boy, when you fumble a punt in the other team's red zone, you're gonna lose the game nine times out of ten. In life, if we were to compare fumbling a punt in the red zone, that would be like, I don't know, you know, getting into a DUI accident. I mean, it's like, you know, there's mistakes, like, oh man, I forgot to lock our back door. And then there's other mistakes, like I broke into a bank with a gun and told them I wanted money. There are different levels of mistakes. So, you know, look, we can repent for all of them, but it's better not to make the gigantic ones that cost you everything. So what do we have in the mailbag?
Richard Yes, this first email comes to us from Elder Ballard.
Gerrit Well, you probably better clarify that real quick.
Richard Well, yeah, we're really behind on our emails. No, this is Elder Ballard from the Nauvoo West Mission.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Yes, I don't believe that it's the same as President Ballard.
Gerrit Look, we just had to check. When you say Elder Ballard, I think most people go right there.
Richard We have been asked to head up the social media committee in the mission. We've been asked to help promote Nauvoo by spreading the word so that people around the world can have a personal tour of different venues in Nauvoo. So we're leading a tour to Nauvoo. This will hurt our bottom line, essentially.
Gerrit Yeah, I figured the best way to promote a tour to Nauvoo will be to tell people that the missionaries can give them a virtual tour and that they don't need us.
Richard Currently.
Gerrit You know what I love about Elder Ballard? He was like, you know what? These guys will do it anyway, and yet here we are.
Richard Yeah, we will. We sure will. Currently, we have virtual tours for the Homestead Mansion House, Red Brick Store, Carthage, and the Temple City. This isn't a video presentation. This is an actual tour just like if you were in person. Missionaries take turns with a camera attached to a gimbal. Now, I don't know what a gimbal is. I know what a gimbal is. That's a Hebrew letter that you use when you're playing dreidel. I assume they're similar.
Gerrit I mean, I assume that Elder Bowerd is a big dreidel player. The next time you have a Hanukkah party, he's going to be there and he's going to be going all gimbal.
Richard By the way, a shout out to the BYU Jerusalem Center. My son is there right now. Turns out it's awesome. So if you didn't think, if you didn't, you're like, hey, I wonder how BYU Jerusalem Center is. It's pretty awesome.
Gerrit He is there too with a great group of faculty. I know the people that are there and all the faculty are great. The faculty rotation he has is legitimately some of the greatest people that I know. And so he must have the greatest instructors of all time. I mean, they're not just people that are brilliant, because there's lots of people that are smart, but they're also kind of jerks like me. There are other people that are super smart and also nice. The faculty that are there are like this perfect collection of absolutely brilliant and super kind. And so I can only imagine it's the greatest thing.
Richard Yeah, it's awesome. Let's see, this is an inspired way to help folks that can't come to the Nauvoo Experience in a small way. We have personally given a virtual tour to a Facebook friend from Pakistan. Mutual classes, activity days, seminary classes, family reunions, and Sunday school classes, just to name a few, have participated in these tours. And that's the thing, I'd say when you're in the Young Men's or Young Women's Organization, you're like, okay, I gotta get through another week of activities, like I've run out of ideas. This is actually a pretty good idea to be able to do. Our goal is to get the word out to as many of brothers as well. So we've now gotten the word out to 15 brothers and sisters listening to this podcast. So that's very good. See, I love you guys. Thanks so much for your contribution to The Cause of Zion. You guys have taught me how to think like a historian. My confidence in standing up for what I believe is so much stronger because of your podcast I love your friendship with each other and your examples.
Richard And all I know about sports is what you guys share. So you know nothing about sports then? Yeah.
Gerrit Well, at least you have a baseline of idiocy.
Richard Well, actually, if you don't know anything about sports other than what you listen here, then you know less about sports than someone that knows nothing about sports. Yeah. The line of your friendship, I just want to go back to the fact you've heard that I've had a sudden cardiac arrest and I'm dead.
Gerrit Yes. Yes. Your first thought is, how am I going to upload the podcast with a replacement AI Richard? Yeah. That was not even the first thought was, okay, we can obviously replicate Richard with AI. Second, how do we upload the book? So that would actually be what I say first, right? Becky calls, Gerrit, there's been a tragedy. You know what? For all I know, Becky calls and she's like, Gerrit, the greatest thing just happened.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Gerrit, it's done. Gerrit, that thing we talked about, it worked. Hey, Gerrit, do you remember what we've been planning? It happened.
Richard All right, now, I love the idea of you plotting my murder yet not getting the password.
Gerrit It was the fatal flaw in our plan. We thought, you know, we planned it for years, and the one thing we forgot was, great, he knows how to upload the podcast. I apologize to everyone. That's probably not very funny. It is funny to us, and that's something. Well, Elder Bowerd, we're going to put the link. We'll put the link that he shared in the description.
Richard He gave us the link.
Gerrit It's a link to where you can do these virtual tours, and they are awesome. The missionaries take you around to the different places as if you were there so that you can have an experience of learning about these sacred places. And as he said, I mean, this is something you could do with a group. So if you've got a young men's or young women's group and you want them to understand a little bit more about the restoration, you can schedule one of these tours and take them all through it as an experience that you can have, where you can do it on your own. It's great and Elder Ballard and Sister Ballard are amazing missionaries. They're the ones out there, boots on the ground, building the kingdom.
Richard Yeah, this is very, very cool. And it looks like a gimbal is a selfie stick.
Gerrit Oh, okay. I'm glad you looked that up.
Richard Well, I just I clicked on the link that they said. And it's just a sister holding a selfie stick.
Gerrit Next Hanukkah party, you should have Gimbals for Gimbals, where people win selfie sticks. What do we have up next in that mailbag there, Richard?
Richard This next email comes to us from McKenna and Jake. So when it comes from a husband and wife, there's usually only one thing.
Gerrit They are letting us know that we've greatly offended them with our content and or our laughter and that they will no longer be listening.
Richard I will say, for all the things that we have laughed at, laughing as hard as we did about you murdering me probably will put some people off, but it wasn't very funny.
Gerrit In fairness, I didn't murder you. Becky did, and I was complicit in it, right? I see. I feel like I would get less jail time.
Richard Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Gerrit Unless I paid for it, then okay.
Richard Well, you could say that we've missed a couple opportunities to send an e-mail the past few years. Currently, we're in the hospital waiting for baby number five in six years.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard That is fantastic. That is following President Oaks before he says anything.
Gerrit Yeah, there's somebody who hears President Oaks and says, hold my Shasta.
Richard Yeah. Who's on the Lord's side? Who? Jake and McKenna. That's who it is.
Gerrit There we go.
Richard We had five kids in eight years and that was fairly aggressive, but yeah, this is great. We thought we'd finally cash in our Standard of Truth guarantee. We actually have the same question. I think it was the first person to write in during labor. We just want to know a little more about Heber C. Kimball and his role in the restoration. After re-listening to some of the episodes during the pregnancy, by the way, also Gerrit, during this wedding, where my father-in-law asked about the Gadianton and Robbers and how this is going to proceed. My wife then purchased for him the premium content, because we also can't get it for free. And so we set him up so that he could hear it, because he's also re-listened. I think between Rachel's mom and my father-in-law, he's listened to every episode like four times.
Gerrit Well, yeah. And then, you know, Renee, my mom. Oh, your mom. Well, Rachel's mom, my mom, your father-in-law is about 64% of our downloads.
Richard Oh, my mom and dad also. It really is kind of like a junior jazz basketball game. That's who listens to this podcast.
Gerrit It is funny. When you go to a youth sporting competition and they're charging people to get in, like legitimately every quote unquote fan is a parent who literally already paid for the league.
Richard It's a parent or grandparent. That's all it is.
Gerrit Yeah, well, I mean, it's like, how many people are sitting around going like, I don't know, what do you want to do? How we could go to that movie? You know what we should do? There's an eighth grade basketball tournament over at the junior high. It's only 10 bucks a pop. We should head on over. I mean, this could be incredible.
Richard It could be incredible. That's funny. We were impressed by the film and faith of Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball throughout the events portrayed in the movie Six Days in August. After months of not knowing what to name this new little fella, we were able to agree on the name Heber. That's a great name. Also, we had an idea that there should be a Google Drive for people who have X amount of kids, X being determined by the Standard of Truth Board of Directors. Because being a parent, you're a missionary too, either that or we'll have to wait till Heber or one of his older sisters goes on a mission to be included in the Google Drive. He had to get that plug-in for the free content. With as many kids in diapers and drinking whole milk, it's practically cheaper to buy a cow at this point. Jokes aside, thanks for the laughs, history, testimonies. You share, we look forward to every Thursday. It makes such a difference to focus on truth and testimonies.
Richard The world goes crazier and crazier. The world gets crazier and crazier. Your faithful Litners, McKenna and Jake. So Heber C. Kimball, Gerrit.
Gerrit Well, I'm gonna, you know, sure you've had five kids in five years or six kids in five years. How many was it? How many kids?
Richard 13 kids in three years, Gerrit.
Gerrit 17 kids in two years. I'm gonna hold off on answering this because in response to their email, I have included a special Heber C. Kimball quote about our current topic. So we're getting a little Heber C. Kimball, what he thinks about what we're talking about.
Richard So did you want to get into it or is, or you want to?
Gerrit No, no, I'm saving, it's part of our, it's part of our Gadianton robbers.
Richard Okay, so there is one more email from a missionary.
Gerrit Let's read the other one and then we'll, and then I'll bring this background and we'll remember them.
Richard Elder Barker, I'm emailing you to confirm that it is possible to freeze Yoohoo. Two weeks ago, I got a package in the mail from my dad and boy was I disappointed.
Gerrit Your dad mailed you Yoohoo on your mission?
Richard Well, when I opened it and found it was a box of 36 Yoohoo's. That's a funny dad. That's a great dad.
Gerrit That's that dad. Listen to the podcast or is he just a psychopath?
Richard Oh, or he's the vice president of sales for Yoohoo.
Gerrit We've got to get missionaries addicted to this stuff. They have no other choice.
Richard Yoohoo is the drink equivalent to this podcast. When you have nothing else to drink, it's okay.
Gerrit Yeah, it's okay. It's fine.
Richard Yeah. He could have sent me a tie or warm socks, but no, he sent me Yoohoo. I decided to test if it could freeze because I didn't believe y'all. So I stuck one outside. I'm serving in Omaha, Nebraska. And this last week, there were three days where it didn't get above nine degrees. And with the windchill, it got down to negative 27. My goodness. Your mission was cold like this, right? I mean, that's next level cold.
Gerrit Yeah, in Wisconsin, it would get below zero. I mean, you'd have one of those Arctic blasts come down from Canada. And the next thing you know, you know, you'd you it was negative 20. And you're like, huh, let's go tracking.
Richard I, I served in Southern California. I had a raincoat. I wore it once. Um, it was a little different when I went on my mission.
Gerrit And one of the things that they had missionaries like it was in their packet was trench coats.
Richard No, so yeah, so that's what I meant. I meant like a big, long trench coat.
Gerrit Like I looked like I was Inspector Gadget.
Richard That's the same one.
Gerrit It was gray. It went down, wore it a grand total of one time on my mission. Had multiple people say you must be FBI. And then we we took it off.
Richard That's hilarious. You'd think that being outside in January would be enough to freeze Yoohoo. Here we are with a lukewarm chocolate milk. All joking aside, I wanted to thank you for your podcast. So negative 27 didn't get it there. You have to go to Fairbanks, Alaska apparently.
Gerrit Yeah. We have a correspondent in Fairbanks that lets us know how Yoohoo is doing.
Richard Helping me realize that following the prophet is more important. It's the most important thing we can do to strengthen our testimony in Jesus Christ. I do have a question. Gerrit has been on several tangents and episodes on how nobody can know when the Second Coming is happening. Well, there was this member that had a book that's purpose was not to do that, but to put events before the Second Coming in chronological order. No dates such as a civil war before the Armageddon war. The big part about it is it always was sourced to scriptures, conference talks or journal discourses, nothing else. Would this be a trustworthy book to rely on? Thank you for your podcast, Elder Barker.
Gerrit Well, the short answer is no. Look, End of Times writing is one of the most lucrative types of writing. I'm not saying that the author doesn't really believe the things they're writing. The problem is if you take certain comments, statements and then place them in the current events of the time, you will find that things line up because what are the statements of events? Well, there's going to be war everywhere. Oh my goodness. So you can find a book written in the 1990s with the Gulf War saying, this is the war that's precipitating Armageddon. Then you can have things after 9-11, but you can keep going back further. You can go find people saying that Vietnam and the Cold War was the war precipitating it. And then so look, I think whenever anyone is trying to lay things out saying this and this and this and this, you'll notice that prophets don't do that.
Gerrit Why isn't it a prophet that is writing a book that is laying out the events of the Second Coming and how close we are? So it always ends up being someone who's not a prophet. Now, in this particular case, we won't mention the book or person, but this particular author has authored dozens and dozens and dozens of books. They don't actually have any special training that would give them any insights on any of these things, but it's just, it's a passion of theirs. And so, I mean, look, whenever you're reading anything, that's talking about theological understanding, even if they're assembling quotes from the prophets, one of the questions you have to ask is what are they not including? Maybe they're not including other quotes that would mitigate the part of what they're saying, and, you know, of necessity, when you're trying to say look how close the Second Coming is, you will look at the world around you as it is right now.
Gerrit That's why there was this explosion of the Second Coming is happening right now, books and podcasts in the middle of the COVID pandemic, right? Because that was a big deal. Governments are being shuttered. People are dying all over the world. This is it. And it wasn't it. So we've talked about it multiple times. Studying about when the Second Coming is going to happen and the signs leading up to it. I understand why that's exciting. But it's also one of those things that in the end is a moving target. Of that day or hour, no man knoweth, not the angels in heaven, nor the sun, the sun. Jesus himself doesn't know when the Second Coming is going to be.
Gerrit I feel like, while it can be on the peripheries helpful to study the events leading up to the Second Coming, I would stick closer to the gospel principles manual on it, rather than books that are written by non-general authorities that tend to overemphasize the relationship of prophecies to current events and gin people up in a way that is not always helpful. And I have to say again, we've said it all the time on this podcast, right before I referenced Richard dying and trying to figure out how to upload the podcast, is the most important way to prepare for the Second Coming. President Nelson told us, read the Book of Mormon, go to the temple.
Gerrit That's the most important way. Knowing the events leading up to it is far less important. And part of that reason is we make light of it. We were joking around, obviously, but we don't know. Tomorrow is promised to no man. I could die in my sleep tonight. And then suddenly missionaries would be learning about ways that they could network people into improving their entrepreneurship goals. I mean, there would be a sudden shift in rhetoric on the podcast. But in all seriousness, none of us know if we're going to be in a car accident today. None of us know if we're going to have a sudden heart attack or if we're going to have some sudden illness or be struck by lightning.
Gerrit None of us know when the last day that we have on this earth is. And so it is almost infinitely more likely that your Second Coming is going to be when you meet Jesus because you've passed away. Then it is that Jesus comes here. If we put the amount of emphasis in preparing ourselves to go meet Jesus when we die, that we put in trying to discern if the latest attack on the filibuster is proof that there are the signs of the time are rapidly leading up to the coming of Gog and Magog. I mean, if we put that kind of effort into just doing what the prophet has asked us to do to prepare, I think we would feel less anxiety about the Second Coming anyway.
Gerrit If you are prepared, you shall not fear. If we can get to a place where we feel like we are continually repenting, where we really are trying to build the kingdom, where we really are loving our fellow men as much as we love ourselves, then whether Jesus comes here or we go there, we should have peace. There's going to be a lot of turmoil when the Second Coming happens. And Brigham Young, I think, offended some people when he taught that there are going to be righteous who die in the cataclysms that lead up to the Second Coming. But that death isn't going to be very bitter because they're immediately going to the presence of Jesus. So if we exercise our faith, we know that whether Jesus comes here or we go there, the important aspect is whether or not we've exercised our faith in him and we've kept our covenants.
Gerrit So appreciate the question. When it comes to things like that, I would always say read it with a gigantic grain of salt. Read it with like a Dead Sea level of grain of salt, knowing that whoever the author is, is just attempting to create what they think a plausible narrative of events is. But if that was an essential thing for us to know, a prophet would be teaching it because that's how prophets instruct us.
Richard Great answer, Gerrit. All right, on to the Gattie and Roberts. Cliff, here you go.
Gerrit Yeah, Cliff, you've been waiting all week. You even talked to Richard at a wedding against your will just to find out more about the Gattie and Roberts. So we left off talking with Joseph Smith, you know, putting down some pretty heavy doctrine. It's interesting, much of what we were doing last episode was quoting Joseph Smith's response to the way he had been attacked by various religions in his day. And Joseph responds, you know, he's attacked for not being a Trinitarian, Joseph responds. He's attacked for not accepting traditional Christian ideology, and Joseph responds. So some of what we discussed is how Joseph responds to this. And we're going to shift now away, not completely away, but at least temporarily away from Joseph Smith's teaching about the spirit world, honing in on the question itself.
Gerrit But I want to start with a sermon that Brigham Young gives, that Wilford Woodruff records. This is June 22nd, 1856. Wilford Woodruff records this in his journal. And the interesting part about it is how Wilford Woodruff introduces this. President Brigham Young preached in the afternoon one of the most interesting sermons, containing the most interesting information, light, truth, and knowledge ever revealed by God through any apostle or prophet on earth. Now, that is a pretty strong endorsement of what we're about to hear. Wilford Woodruff has heard a lot of things. He's there for a ton of Joseph sermons. For whatever reason, what Brigham is talking about is so powerful, the Wilford, that he gives that, that it's one of the most interesting sermons, containing the most interesting information, like truth and knowledge, ever revealed by God through any apostle or prophet on earth.
Richard That's actually stunning to... And he was there for the King Follett sermon.
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, he did say one of the most. So maybe this is like two.
Richard Okay. All right. Got it.
Gerrit But it is following the same type of knowledge that you get from the King Follett sermon. He said, so Brigham said, that the devils were cast out of heaven to this earth, and they are still around us. Their condemnation is they can never have a tabernacle, but they seek to get into the tabernacle of all men. They can all good and bad when they die, remain here upon earth the same as the living. They are mixed up the same as the living are in a great measure. Now, we were already quoting that about Joseph Smith, right? Joseph Smith said, everyone who dies goes to the spirit world and the spirit world's all around us. Here, Brigham is extending that. Look, we have all kinds of different people on earth, when they, the good and bad, and when they die, they remain here upon earth, the same as the living.
Gerrit That there are departed spirits, not just, look, we already know that the evil spirits that followed Lucifer were cast out to this earth. So you've already got a bunch of evil spirits that are all around us, that never got bodies, but you also have spirits that are all around us, that are disembodied spirits, spirits of people that did live on this earth, who have passed away, because the spirit world is here as well. So there are two types of spirits operating in the spiritual realm of this world, the third of the hosts of heaven that are cast out, and those that have passed away. Brigham goes on, Joseph and Hyrum and all the faithful elders in a great measure are at work to preach to the gospel, to the spirits in prison, and prepare them for the coming of Christ.
Gerrit The wicked spirits will gather together against Joseph. They're the same as here. Now that's a little troubling, right? So Joseph has to deal with persecution of the spirit world? I mean, he's persecuted literally to death in mortality, and now he's persecuted to the next life. I mean, maybe it's not the sandals resort that I want it to be when I pass away.
Richard That is kind of a funny thing. Like you get your mission call to the spirit world, and you're like, dog, got it.
Gerrit I just did this. Anyway, the wicked spirits will gather together against Joseph the same as here, but neither the devil nor the wicked have any power over him. They have no power over him there, but he can dispense them at his will. But here's kind of a point to what we're talking about. But those who have shed innocent blood, or who consented thereto, will be angels to the devil until they are disorganized with the devil. Our children and friends are all with us.
Richard Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold up. Wait a minute. Hold up. Hey. So that's interesting.
Gerrit Yeah. And no elaboration on that. I think now he I think he's making a reference to this idea of the sons of perdition.
Richard Yeah. No, I know. But like what the idea of disorganized, like he doesn't elaborate on it. That's fascinating.
Gerrit What will happen to the devil eventually? But also to this point of our departed ancestors being close to us, our children and friends are all with us or near us. Many interesting things were said. We are now in eternity as much as we ever will be. So look, I know there are people who've had loved ones pass away, who at times feel them very, very, very close to them. That is certainly in keeping with what President Young is saying here, that because the spirit world is all around us, our children and our friends are all with us or near us. I think one of the greatest surprises we will have after we pass away, and hopefully it's not tonight, Richard, hopefully the plan doesn't play out tonight, because again, we don't have the passwords.
Gerrit I think one of the greatest things that will surprise us when we leave this life is how many of our ancestors and friends and loved ones have been around us, watching us, trying to buoy us up, helping us, providing inspiration to us, cheering us on. We know that the spirits in the other world anxiously await us to do temple work because we had prophets tell us that. But here, Brigham is explaining this idea that the evil spirits that are around us are not just those that were cast out of heaven. That there's also the evil spirits who were evil in this life, who are also still around. And they apparently don't change their tune immediately. If they're gathering up together to try to persecute Joseph in the spirit world, well, they must still have a problem with Joseph, even though they're in the spirit world.
Gerrit And this kind of goes to something I've said before on the podcast. A lot of people believe that when they die, everyone will immediately know the entire truth of the gospel, and it will all just simply be regret. Oh, man, I wish I would have listened to those missionaries who stopped at my door. But obviously, the reason why that we are organizing teaching in the next life is that you don't instantly know what is true and what isn't, that you have to be taught, which is something that Paul teaches in the New Testament, right? That in order to have faith, you have to hear, right? And how can they believe in that which they have not heard, right? And how can they hear unless someone be sent? So faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, right? So the same thing appears to be true in the next life, that there's preaching.
Gerrit Then of course, Joseph teaches that whenever we, someone consents to obey the gospel, whether alive or dead, that they are saved. And so the gospel is being taught, but apparently there is opposition in that as well. Now, I told you I'd get a little Heber C. Kimball quote in there, so that we can honor the new babies among us. This is from a Heber C. Kimball sermon that he gives in 1865. In early 1865, look, in the years of the early 1860s, there are actually quite a few sermons about the spirit world and what happens after we die, because the United States is in the midst of its most catastrophic war, the American Civil War. By February of 1865, 600,000 Americans have fallen at this point.
Gerrit I mean, it is a stunning level of death. And Heber C. Kimball, as he is talking, is going to give an insight into part of our topic. And I believe one of the reasons why this question about the Gaddi and Robbers in the Hills comes around. He says, the other day, my wife was sick. She came to me and requested me to pray to the Lord that she might be healed. The matter passed from my mind. The day following this, I remarked to her that I had not seen her looking so well for some time previous. Now, Heber, you got to pump the brakes on that a little bit. That's, I don't know how Heber's life went, but I know that, I don't know that it's the best thing to say to your wife, boy, you look a lot better than you've been looking lately. I think he means because she's sick or I don't know.
Gerrit I, it's a Standard of Truth podcast position that you should never tell your wife, boy, you've been looking terrible lately and today you look a little better.
Richard And this is a Valentine's Day tip here from the Standard of Truth podcast, just a little over two weeks away, and just picking up flowers on your way home isn't good enough. Back to you, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah, Valentine's tip, yeah. Also, if you're going to just pick up flowers, you know, make sure that you can pull the Walmart receipt that, you know, tag off of them before you hand them. Yeah.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Yes. Because, you know, in fact, have someone in the neighborhood that she doesn't know, deliver them and say, these are from the floral arrangements. It's just like a word that you can't even, you know, mumble it and hand them. I think that's ways to deceive your wife on the Standard of Truth podcast. Well, that'll be our new podcast if you die suddenly.
Richard Well, it's 17 days to be exact, by the way. Oh, well, that's from recording today. So we're recording this on a Wednesday. So it's 16 days from when you hear this.
Gerrit We thought about having our live event over Valentine's weekend, because nothing says I love you, like tricking your wife to going to a live broadcast of the Standard of Truth.
Richard I think it's funny that you think any guys would want to listen to this podcast.
Gerrit Well, the reason why I say that is we know last time, we legitimately had a guy come to our live event. And by the way, the tickets are almost gone. So if you were like, oh, I'm going to hold out and see, there's like five tickets left. So by the time you hear this, they're already gone probably. But we had a guy who legitimately did not tell his wife where they were going. She had never listened to the podcast. She knew he listened to it. He said, we're going out to a show. She thought they were going to go to something cultured, like something like watching the sound of music, you know, at the theater in Centerville, something like that. No, they show up and it's us recording the live broadcast. She did not seem very amused by the deception. So I would suggest if you are planning on taking your wife on a date to the live event, that you tell her before you get there what it is.
Richard I think that's a good idea. It is one of those things, going back to the flowers in Walmart, but when a person says it's the thought that counts. Exactly, actually. That's actually the problem.
Gerrit Yeah, and that's the problem. Because we were like, what is today, the 14th? All right, better stop off at the neighborhood Walmart, grab some flowers. So back to Heber C. Kimmel. She replied, so he said, you know what, you're looking so good. I can't remember when you've looked so good. I'm rephrasing this for Heber. She replied, I am perfectly sound. I had forgotten about her request that I should pray for her and I had not done so. But she was healed through her honesty, faith and integrity towards the Holy Priesthood. She reverenced and honored it. The Holy Spirit saw it and the angels of God saw it. And she was healed by the power of God without the laying on of hands. It was with that circumstance as it was anciently. The centurion said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof, but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. We who hold the priesthood do not honor each other as we ought in our intercourse with each other.
Gerrit If we do not honor each other, how can we expect to be honored by God and his Holy Spirit, who seeth us and is cognizant of all that we do? We must try to overcome all unpleasant and unkind language toward each other and strive to have our intercourse such as angels will applaud. It is written, resist the devil and he will flee you. Some people do not believe that there are any devils. Now, I've mentioned this before on the podcast that there is a rapidly growing percentage of Christians. Again, Christians, if this was a poll among atheists, you'd be like, yeah, surprisingly, the people who don't believe in God also don't believe in Satan. This is a stunning effect, right? I mean, although you know what? Korihor was pushing against that trend, right? Because he's like, an angel appeared to me and told me to tell people that God doesn't exist.
Gerrit Okay, all right. Good work there, Korihor. Clearly, there's no being from the unseen world, except for the one that just told me to tell people that there's no being from the unseen world. It's crazy. But among Christians, there is a growing trend to not believe that Satan is a real entity or that there really are evil spirits and that they believe in God, but they don't believe in Satan. And it really reminds me, right, the Book of Mormon. They will say, I am no devil for there is none. It is a growing trend in Christianity that many people who self-identify as Christians believe that God exists, but they don't believe that Satan is a real being. And so that it's an interesting thing that even back in a time when they weren't talking about that here, Hebrew is touching that some people do not believe that there are any devils.
Gerrit There are thousands of evil spirits that are just as ugly as evil can make them. They have a real trend in believing that being wicked makes you like physically ugly as well. Right? So apparently, you know, I don't know what's going on. Like you have a giant sideways nose because you were a robber in life. I don't know, but the wicked die and their spirits remain not far from where their tabernacles are. So this is something that Hebrew is teaching, that the people who are super wicked tend to remain somewhere near where they died. Now that's new information, right?
Richard Yeah, that's interesting.
Gerrit Remember, we started this podcast, part one, quoting from the Gospel Principles Manual and from what the church teaches. So if you want to go back, read that. I told you we're going to extend beyond, we're just going to read other things. So if you're like, wait a minute, I've never been, yeah, I know, that's why we started with the Gospel Principles Manual, although I expect to receive, like we do every week, dozens of emails from people telling us how wrong we are because it's not what they heard from a visiting general authority on their mission in 1975. So, the wicked die, their spirits remain not far from where their tabernacles are. When I was in England 28 years ago next June, I saw more devils than there are persons here today. So, he's speaking to conference, right? He's speaking to this giant group. I saw more devils than there are persons here today. They came upon me with an intention to destroy me.
Gerrit They are the spirits of wicked men who, while in the flesh, were opposed to God and his purposes. I saw them with what we call the spiritual eyes, but what is in reality, the natural eyes. So, he's saying while he was in England, he sees a vision of the evil spirits trying to stop his work, and they aren't, they aren't the third of the hosts of heaven that were cast out. The evil spirits specifically trying to stop him were people that had lived on earth and were wicked, and were trying to stop him. So that, again, I know that that's a little bit different than people generally think of the evil spirits around them. And here you go, here's the payoff. This is the reason why you had your baby. Frankly, you didn't know it, but this is the reason why you decided to have a baby.
Gerrit The atmosphere of many of the parts of these mountains is doubtless the abode of the spirits of the Gadianton robbers, whose spirits are as wicked as hell, and who would kill Jesus Christ and every apostle and righteous person that ever lived if they had the power. So one of the ways that this gets into Latter-day Saint culture and lexicon is Hebra C. Kimball giving this talk. Now, I mean, I hate to say it, you know, hate to rain on the Cutler's Parade, but he's giving this sermon in Centerville, just so everyone's aware. So, I mean, I'm not saying, but I am saying that he says, the atmosphere in many parts of these mountains is doubtless the abode of the spirits of the Gadianton robbers.
Gerrit Spirits who were as wicked as hell would kill Jesus Christ in every apostle. So these Gadianton robber spirits are so wicked that they would still, if they could, destroy the righteous even right now. It is by the influence of such wicked spirits that men and women are all the time tempted to tell little lies, to steal a little, to take advantage of their neighbor a little. And they tell us that there's no harm in it. It is by the influence and power of evil spirits that the minds of men are prejudiced against each other until they are led to do each other an injury, and sometimes to kill each other. We are the sons and daughters of God. If we are faithful and honor our calling, and he has respect unto one as much as unto another, in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, it is written, Again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.
Gerrit For what man among you having twelve sons and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he sayeth unto one, Be thou clothed in robes, and sit here, and to the other, be thou clothed in rags, and sit there. And looketh upon his sons, and sayeth, I am just. In this way, the Lord looks upon this people, and I feel to say, God bless this people with all the power that I have got, and with all the good feeling, and with all the priesthood of the Son of God, I bless you in the name of Jesus Christ, and I pray for you and all people. Oh, how I desire for us all to be one, for if we are not one, we must see sorrow. So, you know, he gives us this insight of the fact that the evil spirits, the Gaddi and robbers are, in fact, attempting to influence people to do evil things. And so, you know, maybe the breakup of the polygamist gang by telling them that there were Gaddi and robbers' spirits out there was not, you know, entirely a scare tactic.
Gerrit We've run basically out of time, right, Richard?
Richard Yes, we are out of time.
Gerrit And by out of time, do you mean we're over time?
Richard Not quite. I mean, the first...
Gerrit Is it because we spent so much time fantasizing about your murder?
Richard I got to say, of the six years we've been doing this, I don't know that I've ever laughed harder than at that part. That was my favorite part of this entire series of episodes.
Gerrit We'll see whether or not Becky is just as amused.
Richard I'm pretty confident that she loves me. I'm a big fan of her. She's wonderful. So I don't think she's plotting against me. But that's why, again, I highly recommend... I don't stop off and just buy flowers with the Walmart tag and give them to her for Valentine's Day. I'm going to have to step it up big time this Valentine's Day, for sure.
Gerrit Yeah, well, especially if death is in the offing, the only way you're going to keep it at bay. I mean, who knows how many Gattie and Robbers have followed her home from the last time she was in Centerville?
Richard Well, we do go to the In-N-Out often.
Gerrit Well, that's what I'm saying. The In-N-Out drive through in Centerville.
Richard It's just dealing with Gattie and Robbers.
Gerrit If you're ever sitting there saying, you know what, I'd like this animal style, and also I'm going to murder somebody, that's how you know. If you're thinking, is there any way I could get those onions grilled? By the way, I'd like to kill somebody.
Richard So look, here's the thing, if you look at the bottom of the cups, they have scripture verses on those In-N-Out cups. I think In-N-Out and Chick-fil-A, those two Christian forces push back the Gattie and Robbers. So those are the two safest places to eat in Centerville.
Gerrit Well, so does that mean that they have to go somewhere else? Where are they congregated where they can't get people that are in the In-N-Out drive-thru?
Richard They're at the McDonald's next door.
Gerrit I love that McDonald's. I've eaten there many times. Yeah. So we're going to talk more about... I know we don't want to have another part on this, but I have some more quotes. And so maybe it won't be a whole episode next time. But there are more references to this idea from other... I'm going to primarily stick to what Brigham Young is saying, but I shared this because of the email we got, and because he speaks directly to it. This idea that it's not just evil spirits that are cast out of the presence of God that are tempting us and causing us trouble. It's actually even evil spirits of people who were once embodied. If you think that an evil spirit that never got a body, but has a lot of knowledge, has the ability to effectively tempt us, imagine the ability of an evil spirit that did have a body, that knows exactly what it's like to have a body.
Gerrit Imagine their ability to tempt us. And the Gadianton Robbers did a great example of people who absolutely reject Jesus and reject the truth. So, look, the point of this podcast isn't to scare you. I don't need people walking around looking for, you know, bringing their ghost buster-esque positron sliders, trying to capture ghosts around them. But I do think that it is an important aspect of our theology and one that we've highlighted before, that there really are two great powers in the world. If you feel like it is really hard to do what's right, that you are being tempted constantly to do what's wrong, that you feel pressure to sin all the time, that's because there are apparently millions upon millions of evil spirits that are constantly in the unknown realm, in the realm you can't see, trying to pressure you to do what's wrong.
Gerrit Now, the promise is God has promised that we have power over those spirits if we maintain our righteousness. So don't allow yourself to think that there isn't an opposition power. We talked about this in Joseph Smith and the Restoration and the Premium side. Joseph becomes acquainted with two aspects of Satan's power. The first, when he goes out to pray in the First Vision, and he feels physically besought. And as Joseph tries to explain it, hey, this is not some imaginary power. No, I'm physically, my tongue is stuck to the top of my mouth. I believe I am going to be destroyed, not an imaginary destruction, a physical, real power.
Gerrit And then he says, you know, exerting all my powers. He prays and the darkness is gone. So Joseph is acquainted with that actual power of the adversary. Not just, hey, I think you guys shouldn't do your ministering. No, like an actual physical power that's there. And then the second way that Joseph becomes acquainted with his power is after the angel appears to him and tells him about the gold plates, Joseph becomes acquainted, and this is what Joseph says, the angel says to him, because Joseph goes to get the plates, but he's not able to get them. And when he can't get them, he says, it's because I sought the plates to obtain riches. This time, it wasn't the overwhelming power of Satan physically trying to destroy him, but it was the overwhelming power of temptation that was so great.
Gerrit You know, saying to him, hey, you know, you have a responsibility to your parents, Joseph, and they've been suffering so much and it's not been their fault and people have stolen their ginseng money and they've had all these kinds of bad things happen. God will be okay with you if you just maybe steal, just steal a leaf of the gold plates and sell it. And it's good to want to see your mom happy. It's good to want to see your dad no longer have to struggle every day. And that temptation, that power was so great that as Oliver Cowdery says, as Joseph is walking up to get the plates, by the time he gets there, he is completely abandoned. What God said the purpose of getting the plates was, and now his plan is to steal the plates for money. And when he can't get them and he cries to God, when the angel appears to him and tells him why he can't get them, one of the things the angel says is that this happens so that you could understand the power of the adversary.
Gerrit So in those two ways, the physical power that I think we're always worried about, you know, possession and what happens with Joseph, where this darkness really is going to crush him in the First Vision. But the other thing we have to be, just as cognizant of is that overwhelming power of temptation, the justification, as Heber C. Kimball says here, that causes us to justify doing evil things, claiming that it's not that bad or that it's for a right reason. So thank you so much for joining us. Richard's about to die because we're so far over. Well, I guess I can't say that anymore since, you know.
Richard You better hope I live till next week. Better hope.
Gerrit If this podcast doesn't drop for another three years, it'll be because that's how long it took us to figure out the passwords. So thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

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Well, and I haven't told Gerrit what the passwords are to be able to upload the podcast episodes to Apple or Spotify. That's my, that's my, the secret to my sustained success.

RichardBanter

Well, if you pass away, then this will turn into a behavioral economics podcast.

RichardBanter

In life, if we were to compare fumbling a punt in the red zone, that would be like, I don't know, you know, getting into a DUI accident.

GerritBanter

It was the fatal flaw in our plan.

GerritBanter

Yoohoo is the drink equivalent to this podcast. When you have nothing else to drink, it's okay.

RichardBanter

And so it is almost infinitely more likely that your Second Coming is going to be when you meet Jesus because you've passed away.

GerritInsight

If you are prepared, you shall not fear.

GerritInsight

I think one of the greatest things that will surprise us when we leave this life is how many of our ancestors and friends and loved ones have been around us, watching us, trying to buoy us up, helping us, providing inspiration to us, cheering us on.

GerritInsight

it's a Standard of Truth podcast position that you should never tell your wife, boy, you've been looking terrible lately and today you look a little better.

GerritBanter

I think In-N-Out and Chick-fil-A, those two Christian forces push back the Gattie and Robbers.

RichardBanter

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Brigham Young preached in Southern Utah that Gadianton robbers infest the area.
When we die, we'll instantly know the whole truth of the gospel.
A careful book lining up scriptures and conference quotes can tell us how close the Second Coming is.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Brigham Young taught that our departed children and friends are with us or near us, and Gerrit believes we'll be surprised how often they've been cheering us on.

The surest way to prepare for the Second Coming is to prepare to meet Jesus, whether he comes here or we go there: read the Book of Mormon, go to the temple, keep your covenants.

Heber C. Kimball warned that evil spirits tempt us to tell 'little lies' and steal 'a little,' and to justify it; the answer is to esteem each other and be one.

Joseph Smith learned that the adversary's power can be physical, as in the First Vision, or the quiet power of temptation, as when he first went for the plates.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Becky's murder plotIf Richard dies, Gerrit's first thought is the upload passwords; then Becky calls to say 'it worked,' and Richard says it's the hardest he's laughed in six years (1:28, 12:22, 12:53, 55:59).
AI RichardAn AI Richard who asks better questions, makes better picks and treats his wife better (2:15, 2:23).
Cliff and the Gadianton robbersRichard's father-in-law asks at a wedding how the series ends; twine and alfalfa protein now have competition (3:12, 4:07, 31:35).
The audience: Gerrit's mom (and Rachel's mom)Rachel's mom, Gerrit's mom and Richard's father-in-law are about 64% of downloads, like a Junior Jazz game (17:15, 17:25).
Gimbals for gimbalsRichard thinks a gimbal is a dreidel letter; it's a selfie stick (9:04, 14:32, 14:45).
Yoo-hooElder Barker's dad mails 36 YooHoos to Omaha; negative 27 wind chill can't freeze one, so 'you have to go to Fairbanks' (20:10, 22:17).
Inspector Gadget trench coatGerrit wore his mission trench coat once and was asked if he was FBI (21:47, 22:03).
Valentine's tipsDon't tell your wife she looks better than lately, and pull the Walmart tag off the flowers (43:41, 43:51, 44:03).
The Centerville In-N-OutIn-N-Out and Chick-fil-A push back the Gadianton robbers; the robbers are at the McDonald's next door (56:47, 57:10, 57:34).
Elder Ballard (not that one)A Nauvoo senior missionary named Elder Ballard needs a quick clarification (7:56).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites Matthew 8:8Christ-Centered UnityPresident Dieter F. UchtdorfPresident Uchtdorf, recalling his own baptism in a public swimming pool, teaches that baptism is an individual ordinance that also joins us to a covenant people.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Wilford Woodruff's journal for June 22, 1856 and Brigham Young's full sermon on the spirit world (32:42).
Heber C. Kimball's 1865 Centerville sermon and how it spread into Gadianton robber folklore (52:23).
Heber C. Kimball's encounter with evil spirits in England, which he describes 28 years later (50:18).
The Nauvoo missionaries' virtual tours of the Mansion House, Red Brick Store and Carthage Jail for youth groups and classes (13:49).
SOT Litner · S6E5.