Gadianton Robbers Part 4 (Heavenly Travel)

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. I'm still alive. Thanks for having me back.

Gerrit Well, it was touch and go. We still have two passwords to figure out, and then we can drop the boom.

Richard It was funny. So I was working on it Saturday afternoon, and you were getting a flurry of texts from me, and you're like, wait, what's going on? With all the usernames and passwords.

Gerrit Hey, Richard, we weren't really planning to kill you.

Richard But I woke up with some abdominal pain, and I'm like, I got to get this over to Gerrit. I got to save the podcast. Well, it's great to be back excited. I know we've got a little bit of the finish up on some Gadianton talk.

Gerrit We've got some Gadianton stuff going on. We've got, I mean, clearly, the Super Bowl is coming up, so we got to make our picks.

Richard All our picks, yeah.

Gerrit Yeah, we've got to continue our winning streak from the National Championship game.

Richard Yeah. By the way, we do have that, we now have kind of something to play in to making those picks. So I don't know if you want to jump into that straight away or what you...

Gerrit Wow, yeah. Well, yeah, let's do. Let's start right off so that everyone thinks this isn't a church show.

Richard It's funny. One of the email that we're going to read mentions President Hinckley's 2005 conference address on gambling, actually.

Gerrit Maybe we should read the email first.

Richard Okay. All right. Let's read our email first. This comes to us from Rebecca. And by the way, when we were going through the email before, there's something about that name that makes Gerrit and I sing the song from the Old Testament seminary videos every time.

Gerrit Yes. Yeah. Because it was one of the only approved CDs that exists that you can listen to on your mission. And so it was either Mormon Tabernacle Choir. And I had songs of the Civil War. Now I was playing that on repeat. But Richard wants to sing a few bars of Like Rebecca. Like Rebecca. I will forsake the rest. Yeah. That one wasn't as great a song unless you happen to be related to the person who wrote it or sang it. And if that's the case, we think it's amazing.

Richard Yes, it is very good. So this comes to us from Rebecca and whose children's children will be blessed.

Gerrit We'll be blessed. We'll be blessed.

Richard Hello. This is the original woman in labor. I'm not currently in labor, but I hope you'll read.

Gerrit This is how it all started.

Richard Yes. Two and a half years ago. This very day.

Gerrit Before that, how did people have their emails read on the podcast? Before the labor, was it just, was it death threats they made against us? How did it happen before?

Richard No, it was some sort of kidnap hostage situation.

Gerrit I see.

Richard And they kidnapped the wrong kid for me to read their emails online.

Gerrit Yeah, that's the problem. They're like, I don't even like that one. Ask him why his room's dirty.

Richard That's funny. Actually, we're just talking to Rigdon, who's going down to the BYU, but he's dating a lovely lady that is up here in Davis County. And so he is home every day. And so Becky goes in and says, Rigdon, your room is a mess. And he says, my room is in Provo. That's the guest bedroom. You need to get that cleaned up by whoever the guest is that's staying there, which I thought was very funny.

Gerrit And then Rigdon was unable to walk out of the house. Is that because I assume anyone's saying that to Becky, that that's probably the last thing they say to Becky.

Richard Well, so here's the trick. The trick is if it's funny, you know what? Okay.

Gerrit She'll let it slide.

Richard But that's the game you're playing. It better be funny.

Gerrit Yeah, if she doesn't laugh. It's like she has to turn her chair around. If she doesn't.

Richard Well, it's one of those things, though, too, where Rigdon's wry smile, like he can play my wife like a Stradivarius. You know what I mean?

Gerrit He's very disarming.

Richard He is very disarming. And so he drives home. He's literally home, sleeping in the guest room every day. And we love it, actually. It's nice. Andrew's in Israel, so a little more of Rigdon is fine. I hope you read email and pass anyway, and pass along my congratulations to Jake and McKenna on the birth of their baby, Heber. For those Litners who have not gone back into the archives far enough to hear about the first time I wrote the podcast, while I was in labor on the 200th anniversary of Moroni Day. Or for those Litners who have understandably forgotten because it was two and a half years, almost two and a half years ago, we named our son Heber. According to the Social Security Administration website, Heber hasn't been the top 1000 most popular names in the US for over 100 years. And according to NameCensus, which claims to use the Social Security Administration's data and its source, there were 29 baby boys given that name in 2023 and 33 baby boys given that name in 2024.

Gerrit Well, that's an increase right there.

Richard I mean, that's a dramatic increase.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, over 10% increase of Hebers.

Richard Yeah, it's like almost a 15% or more increase.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, there's Hebers falling off the back of trucks everywhere now.

Richard Dr. Richard LeDuc, MBA, PhD, I respectfully request, you set a gambling line on whatever it is called. Look, everything I know about gambling comes from this podcast, the 1979 Disney movie, The North Avenue Irregulars, which is a hilarious reference that I had to look up. Everyone that was in that show has long since passed away. And of course, President Hinckley's 2005 conference address, I just want you to set an over-under on people that have been named Heber. Do we think it's going up for another year or back down? I'm going to take the over on that, Gerrit.

Gerrit So over 33 or under 33?

Richard I'm going to take 37 and a half.

Gerrit So I'm going to take the under on 37 and a half. I think it's going to be, I think it's stabilizing. I think people run to Heber when they're worried about the economy. It's like getting by gold. And so I'm going to say the number of Hebers is under 37 and a half.

Richard Yeah, when silver goes over 100 and gold's at 5,000, KD bar the door on Heber.

Gerrit Well, people just start, they invest in names that make them feel comfortable.

Richard That's right. That's right. In some 19th century name, when a Heber is born, does he come with full chops?

Gerrit Yeah. Well, they're born with mutton chops. Yeah. It's right there. And then a neck beard. They're not connected. Mutton chops all the way down to the end of your chin, but then a neck beard that's not connected to the chops.

Richard That's good. I didn't know they were all related to my Jewish relatives.

Gerrit They would have gotten along swimmingly.

Richard Yes. Yes. We are a hairy people. Also, I would love your thoughts on what percentage of parents who name their sons Heber are podcast listeners. That number is 100 percent.

Gerrit Well, so we already know that it's at least two.

Richard Right. So we're sitting like 6 percent right now, right?

Gerrit It's kind of like, I mean, there's a silent majority out there of Heber's naming parents that listen to the podcast, but they are too bashful to let us know. So we're waiting your e-mails.

Richard She actually says, do we think it's 100 percent? Yes. Yes, Rebecca. I do think it's 100 percent. Perhaps my son's birth started not only a six-part series on Moroni, but also a subconscious, nearly undetectable nudge among young parents having children to remember that the name Heber exists, leading to an increase of people using the name. Signing off, Rebecca. PS. As always, thank you for the good work that you're doing. I believe it's making a difference in building the kingdom of God. Carry on, carry on, carry on.

Gerrit Awesome.

Richard That's very nice. Rebecca's awesome.

Gerrit Thank you.

Richard By the way, not kind of unrelated is that our live event in front of the studio audience is sold out. So we appreciate everybody that has signed up for that. And there are no refunds. So thank you and, you know, I don't know, Gerrit, I think there's something positive about being disappointed in life that kind of helps to stabilize other parts of your life and kind of a reality that sits in. And coming to our event will certainly do that. And we look forward to seeing people there.

Gerrit Yeah, I assume that coming to the live event, while already my waking nightmare, can now be shared with everyone else. And it becomes a touchstone for the other things in your life. Like, because you might say something like, man, I never want to go to another wedding reception ever again. It's the worst thing I could possibly go to. And then you come to the live event and you're like, you know what? Don't you have a cousin who's getting married? And you can leave and go to it.

Richard That's correct. This next email in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag comes to us from Carrie. Subject, you got no money, you got no car, you got no woman, and there you are. Second time writing in, I almost feel bad because you get so many emails, which leads me to state the following anyway. Number one, you're very good at the self-deprecating humor. So good, in fact, that the last time I wrote in, you actually read it on the podcast, and I thought, wow, that's cool. I'm telling no one though.

Gerrit Yeah, we're good at self-deprecating humor. Not because we're good at it, because we're honest. And so it's easy to make it. When you have such a large target.

Richard Well, I mean, Gerrit, I study reciprocity and implied referrals, and you study 19th century church history. We're not two guys that are cutting it up at a party.

Gerrit I mean, we just sang bars of a 1997 Old Testament soundtrack for Crying Out Loud.

Richard From seminary, yeah. Yeah, it's true. From the seminary videos from that year. Wow, that's cool. I'm telling no one. And then my oldest son, who told me about the podcast in the first place, while he was serving in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh mission, had a former companion contact him and tell him, I think your mom's letter was on the podcast. My son stopped listening to the podcast when he came home. Well, that's what they do. There's often, by the way, Gerrit, the thought that we're doing this as a way to promote the podcast, and we get them when they're younger, and then they come back, and they listen to the podcast. But we've learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all returned missionaries, as soon as they get a little bit of freedom, as they suppose, they immediately begin listening to anything else.

Gerrit Immediately stop listening to the podcast. Yeah. I mean, we've got people that will email us like 60 times from their mission, and then the 61st email is, I'm not listening to this anymore because other things exist.

Richard The only example we have of a missionary coming home and still listening is President Abel.

Gerrit Well, only because he became a 70 right after he got home.

Richard So I'm reminded of when Raglan came home from his mission in Peru, and he's got the tagline for the show, which is, when you have nothing else to do, it's okay.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard It's okay. But so he comes home, he's been home from his mission a week. We're on a tour, and we're recording there in Keokuk, Iowa, which is one of the many advantages of going on a tour with us, is that we'll record in a kind of an empty space in Keokuk. It's a lot of fun.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard It's okay. But so he comes home, he's been home from his mission a week. We're on a tour, and we're recording there in Keokuk, Iowa, which is one of the many advantages of going on a tour with us, is that we'll record in a kind of an empty space in Keokuk. It's a lot of fun.

Gerrit To be fair, it was probably one of the most happening places that there was in Keokuk in 1894. For sure.

Richard And first of all, the people of Keokuk are, they are a friend to the Idahoan. They remind me of growing up in kind of...

Gerrit It's like being in a small Idaho town.

Richard Yeah, it's great. It's absolutely great, right? And even the guy that we rent the space from, he's like, you know, there's better spaces. You sure you want to rent from me?

Gerrit Are you sure? It is funny. You're like, yeah, no, we think the space will work out for us. I don't know, guys. You got to find something better.

Richard Believe me, we would.

Gerrit It reminds me, you know, we got an email this week from a friend of the show, Matt, who specifically talked about how he's from a very small town in Utah. And but he would he you're going to have to respond to him because he asked specifically if you would be coming to the March Madness Party.

Richard Oh, yeah.

Gerrit Wings again this year.

Richard Oh, yeah. No, I wouldn't miss it. Yeah, I'm very excited about it.

Gerrit But I think that that's something that Matt shares with us is that yet when you come from a really small town, you're very a rural place. There's a different sense about things than there is in a big city. Not that not that not that Spanish fork is a big city. But you know what? If if I still lived in Shelly and there was a town the size of Spanish fork next to me, this would be called the city.

Richard Well, I mean, you got you got the shout out of the Grammys Post Malone's hat.

Gerrit I know. I mean, come on. Talk about being on the map. If Post Malone is going to wear your hat. I mean, the only thing better is if he got it tattooed on the other side of his face.

Richard Well, so anyway, Rigdon home from his mission a week. His dad is there. And he's like, I'm going to go back to the hotel. The very first shot at freedom. He's like, yeah, I'm fine. I can't.

Intro He can choose.

Gerrit And remember, he said he was going to go to the hotel to sleep. OK, so this is a 21 year old. 20. He's 20. 20 year old guy.

Richard He doesn't turn 21 till next week. He's 20.

Gerrit OK, this is a 20 year old kid, has all kinds of energy, has no job. He's got no money. He's got no car.

Richard And at the time, he had no woman either.

Gerrit And there he was. He came to Iowa and he had the option of listening to the podcast or going to bed at 830 at night. And he chose 830 at night.

Richard My son stopped listening to the podcast when he came home, apparently finding better things to do. Well, yeah.

Gerrit We're with you, Kerry.

Richard Like find his now wife. Oh, well, there you go. Well, that actually is productive. So it's good for her son. It was shortly after you read my last email in the podcast, you also stated that the martyrdom episode had millions of downloads. I don't know if I said millions. I might've said millions.

Gerrit We've had millions of downloads total though, among all our episodes.

Richard Yeah. I think we're at 7 million.

Gerrit Yeah. So, and 6 million, 999,000 of them are today.

Richard I was flabbergasted because here I thought that Renee, Rachel's mom and Rex's elders, Coram president were the only listeners and maybe some missionaries. We actually, one of the things that is kind of a bummer, we've had a bunch of, you know, it's ebbs and flows because we put the missionary email in the Google Drive so they can only access it through their missionary email. But then when they get home, that, you know, it falls off in a couple of months. And so we've lost probably about a thousand missionaries in the last couple of months. So it's kind of a, it's very sad.

Gerrit I mean, we got like nine requests just in the last six hours.

Richard Yeah, I think we're, I think, so we're in missionary season. So now is the time for people to start sending as they start getting their calls. It's very exciting. I had no idea that the listening audience could be that large, you and us both. It makes me happy, though. I think that there are so many similar minded people listening in, which is why the tour is so much fun, by the way, because it's a bunch of like minded folks that take the gospel seriously, but not themselves. In December, my husband was asked last minute to teach Sunday school. We were driving home and I said he needed Christie's Corner. For background info, he is not a podcast listener. He doesn't just not listen to your podcast. He listens to Zero Podcast.

Gerrit For a second, I thought you were going to like, he doesn't just not listen to your podcast. He actively tries to prevent other people from- He's just slapping phones out of people's hands. He's walking around shoving people.

Richard What are you listening to? Dan Patrick slaps it out of their hand. He ended up listening to the whole episode and his takeaway was, I haven't pre-read this as is obvious by my reading, but I'm interested to see what her husband says. That one guy knows what he's talking about, but the other one, why is he on there? That's hilarious.

Gerrit Who do you think that one guy was? Was it you or me?

Richard Well, that's what I'm saying. That's so mean to say to you. You know what I mean? You put so much time in.

Gerrit It must have been an episode about implied referrals.

Richard What does that other guy do? That's a heck of a question. That is a heck of a question. I'm so sorry if this is offensive. It is not. But I snort laughed when he said that because I've listened to almost all of your episodes. Again, thank you so much for the podcast. I am very picky about who I allow in my head via podcasts and social media in relation to the church. That is why I've listened to the first time when my oldest was on his mission and told me about the church podcast not produced by the church. I had to vet the show. My son, who is still serving in the Oklahoma City, oh, there you go, in the only true mission of Oklahoma. Look, there's, Oklahoma is one of my favorite places. There's some great, if he's in Stillwater, you gotta let me know. I gotta take him to the garage. Gerrit, you and I had dinner at the garage.

Gerrit Yeah, a lot of different things put on those burgers. Let me put it that way.

Richard Yeah, the Thai chili and peanut butter cheeseburger.

Gerrit Yeah, the peanut butter, I just can't do it.

Richard Oklahoma has been kind to him, albeit so long, he hasn't mentioned, doesn't mention the church. For example, he and a companion chatted with a man and prayed with him in his front yard. After the prayer, the man said something to the effect of that was very nice. And then he noticed the net, their name tags. And all of a sudden wasn't nice anymore. It's much like the story you tell about Joseph Smith and the runaway stage coach, right?

Gerrit It's like, Oh my gosh. Like, You're a hero. This is great. What's your name so that we can have the congress people strike off a medal for you. But when they found out I was Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet, there was no more talk of honors.

Richard I love the people of Oklahoma. And it's unfortunate, you know, sometimes people... Thanks for the endless hours of your time in producing the show. I hope you consider this podcast as something of a mission itself. You are serving my teaching and I appreciate that. As for the subject line, I think it was thrown down again in Sunday's episode. And since I believe I'm your same age, the song immediately got stuck in my head. With all the thanks, Kerry, your favorite California attorney, Litner.

Gerrit Did you read the subject line?

Richard Yeah, I did at the beginning. You got it when you got it.

Gerrit We only quote long since retired rappers. That's, it's that, and I believe communist. Well, just anarcho-syndicalists.

Richard Communists.

Gerrit Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard Or when you speak in my ward when we have a presiding 70 atheists.

Gerrit Yes. Well, no, no, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

Richard Oh, okay. Yes.

Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and not the happy Monty Python kind, but the less, the less happy kind.

Richard So Gerrit, now, now I've got the music to play in to the intro here. Okay.

Gerrit I'm gonna take Indiana to win, but Miami to cover.

Richard That's the safer bet. I think that that's the safer prediction. You're not betting on this.

Gerrit Yeah, Indiana wins by six. Somehow six, I don't know, but six.

Richard All right, Gerrit, we have the Seattle Seahawks, the New England Patriots. It's a rematch of Super Bowl, whatever the heck. What do you think? It's four and a half, Seattle.

Gerrit Yeah, so last I looked, Tom Brady wasn't coming out of retirement for the Patriots, so I'm gonna go heavy with the Seahawks. You know, Drake May's a great story, played great. He's very much exceeded, and obviously Vrabel's a great coach. But if you had to pick a defense, wouldn't you say the Seattle defense is better? Even though the Patriots have a great defense, Seattle defense is better.

Richard Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, the Patriots team is kind of reminds me of the first year the Patriots won the Super Bowl, you know, where they had a really good defense, and their offense just, you know, made it happen and did enough to get through. And so it's four and a half points. You think Seattle for entertainment purposes only, they cover?

Gerrit Yeah, I think they cover. I'm taking Seattle to win and Seattle to cover.

Richard OK, Seattle to win, Seattle to cover. I'm taking New England. I'm taking New England to win and to cover. I'm taking New England to win and cover, and I'm taking the under on the points. It's 45.5 is the points. If it goes under on points, that's the kind of game I think that New England is going to need to win. Do you remember the game? What was it? The Rams? Was it the Rams? New England? It was a super boring Super Bowl. It was really low scoring, not a lot of action. That's essentially what we're going to need here for New England to win.

Gerrit What do you think the odds were if you went back three years ago and put money on Sam Darnold being the quarterback for a Super Bowl team? If you went back three years ago, what do you think those odds would have been?

Richard I mean, he was a journeyman. I mean, first of all, he looks like a Lego fireman.

Gerrit First of all, he looks exactly like a Lego fireman. First of all, he looks like he's running for city council in Ireland.

Richard His dad was the mall or his grandfather was the Marlborough man. Were you aware of this?

Gerrit Oh, well, how many? I thought there were tons of them.

Richard Well, yeah, they went through them pretty quick. I don't know what happened to him.

Gerrit It's weird. Just some odd illness.

Richard Yeah. Yeah, boy, that's... So, I mean, you've got... You have some Super Bowls where there's quite the... It's kind of lopsided, right? Those are always kind of interesting. I mean, the one that stands out the most was the Giants Patriots. That was 2008 where the Patriots were favored by 12 and they lost. I think that New England... I think Vrabel is a really good coach. Turned the team around. May's good. He's serviceable. Their defense is good. I think that they cover and I think they win outright.

Gerrit Wow.

Richard And it's under...

Gerrit Speaking of robbers, the Patriots, as I was prepping for this, I found a quote that doesn't directly relate to our spirit world conversation, but it kind of did. So I thought I would share it. This isn't about Gadianton Robbers, but this is a sermon from 1880 that Wilford Woodruff is giving. And he just provides a perspective. I mean, if you're looking for someone who understands the differences behind the veil, you know, what it's like when you die, what those on the other side are doing. I mean, this is the prophet that had many of the early, you know, founding fathers and many other great religionists come and visit him. Right. So, I mean, he has this vision of them anyway, and does their work for them. But I thought this is a profound way to think about the difference between the spirit world and this world.

Gerrit He said, death was a separation of friends here and a meeting on the other side of the veil. Births are a separation in the spirit world, while it is a joy here. So, if you think about that, I never once thought about that, actually, never think about the fact that you're there now, and you've been with these spirit brothers and sisters, millennia, for trillions of years. There is no beginning. There is some sadness when they leave to come to Earth, because you're separated from them now.

Richard In the documentary, Saturday's Warriors, it kind of does-

Gerrit Documentary, wow. Okay. No. That's a 15-yard penalty, illegal use of the word documentary, Richard.

Richard Well, so, no, I mean, but that is an interesting perspective that I had, which thing I had never before thought.

Gerrit Yeah. I mean, to think about the spirit world. And I think what that quote goes to is just how similarly, when you read Joseph, when you read Brigham, when you read Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, when you read these early prophets and apostles, one of the things they really stress is that the lack of change that takes place when we die. And I know that that is completely countercultural. You know, you don't generally think as a Latter-day Saint that you are some kind of countercultural, that you're probably not sitting there thinking that, you know, you're a hippie and you're like, it's the government, you know, that... But as a Latter-day Saint, when it comes to Christianity, you really are countercultural because every Christian out there really believes that there is going to be a massive change that takes place when they die, right?

Gerrit Because we're all sinners, but if we've had faith in Jesus, then we're going to be changed. We're not going to be corrupt still. We're going to be something good.

Richard So I substituted teaching gospel doctrine on Sunday, which thing I assume I will never be asked back to do.

Gerrit Wait, was the bishop or any other representative there?

Richard No, but it got back to him.

Gerrit Yeah, so it was bad enough that someone had to go seek out the bishop and say, hey, you know what Richard's teaching in here, right?

Richard Yeah, it got back. But one of the things that I did is, so I mean, there's a lot of radical doctrine in the Book of Mormon. But if you read the Book of Mormon, there's also a lot of stuff that you read and you're like, oh, okay. Yeah, we believe that. There's plenty, you want to steer clear of Second Nephi Chapter 2, but there's a lot of stuff you read in the Book of Mormon and it's whatever. My point was to say that, well, there's quite a bit in the Book of Mormon. I showed the Book of Moses and all of the things in the first couple of chapters of the Book of Moses, and it was, to your point, you talk about it all the time. I just stole from you, much like Elder Abel did, but it's dramatic, to be sure.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's such a stark difference, and while we love our Christian brothers and sisters and we share many beliefs with them, boy, the places where there really is a stark separation, they surround obviously the pre-mortal life, because no one else believes in it, the purpose of this life, and the afterlife, because those are things that are different based upon the revelations that Joseph Smith received. Brigham Young talking about this at a funeral in 1871, talks about this kind of difference between the two worlds. So again, this is, you know, it's at a funeral, so it makes sense. There has been considerable said and well said with regard to our existence. And I will say this.

Gerrit As for the gospel of the Son of God, it is here. As for the priesthood, it is here. As for the keys of the priesthood, they are here, and they are enjoyed by this people called Latter-day Saints. A few words to my friends. To preach or talk to the dead, I have never undertaken to. I talk to the living on such occasions as this. We are assembled this morning to pair our last respects to the remains of a beloved sister, and we meet her here with cheerfulness. It is not quite three years since we met in this room to pair our respects to the remains of this young lady's father. She is now gone to try the realities of another existence, to another department of the life and lives that God has bestowed upon his children. This life is preparatory to a more exalted state of existence. We have a certain amount of intelligence here, but in the life to come, we shall have more.

Gerrit We shall see the life and growth of the human family. And to those ignorant of the object of our creation, the process presents a very strange phenomenon. But to those who do understand, it is rational, plain, and easy to be understood. And in fact, they see it as necessary that it should be just as it is. You step into a room, and you perhaps see a mother attending a sick child a few weeks or a month old, and helpless and totally dependent on others as that infant is. It is no more so than we have all been. For every member of the human family passes through the same process that we behold day after day in our houses and in the houses of our neighbors. And then a little later on in the sermon, he says, there is as much variation in these respects as there is in the physiognomy of the human family.

Gerrit Hence, when disease seizes our systems, we do not know what to do, and death often overcomes us and we bury our friends. This is hard for us, but what of it? We will follow them. They will not come back to us. The time will come when they will come back, but that will be when Jesus comes. We shall be with them then, but we shall perhaps sleep in the dust long before that time. That is many of us. Perhaps some in this house will live until Jesus and the saints come, but I expect to sleep. I have no promise of living until then. I can say with regard to parting with our friends and going ourselves, that I've been near enough to understand eternity, so that I've had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered with this clog of dirt that we are carrying around here.

Gerrit So I believe he's making a reference to our bodies as a clog of dirt. Now, as someone who worked in potato fields, I mean, dirt clogs are ever-present in the furrowed fields, and you throw them at people, basically your brothers. But yeah, I was going to say, you throw them at signs, or you throw them... If I said animals, which I never would have done, then people would be upset, but don't worry, I would never throw them at animals.

Richard Brothers, yeah, and your friends.

Gerrit Does my brother count as an animal? Technically, yes. Yes. But he has the power of rational thought, so he could have dodged.

Richard It's his fault.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, why are you standing there as I throw... There are very few people listening who have any idea what a dirt quad from a field is.

Richard No, that's not possible.

Gerrit You think?

Richard No, no, no. Latter-day Saints are... They're from... I mean, if you've only lived in New York City, I mean, come on. It's not possible.

Gerrit I'm just saying that Brigham Young comparing us to a clog of dirt.

Richard That's funny.

Gerrit It is not uncovered with this clog of dirt that we're carrying around here, so that when we advance in years, we have to be stubbing along and to be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth even frequently stubbing their toes and falling down, but yonder, how different. They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem or this or that or another place, I presume we are permitted if we desire. There we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior, or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when it was created, there we are and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally and spiritually it still remains. So first of all, as a devoted student of history, this is awesome, right?

Gerrit That apparently in the next life, I would have the ability to be like, I want to see the Battle of Waterloo right before Blücher attacks the French flank. I mean, and you'd be able to see it and witness it. I mean, maybe he didn't say that he didn't he didn't think I would waste this power on something vulgar. He's like, oh, you could see what Jerusalem was like in the days of the Savior. And then I was like, I don't battle of Waterloo. I want to see. I just really want to figure out, you know, what was going on inside Washington's head on the Battle of Long Island.

Richard I would go to the Michigan North Carolina game when Chris Webber calls the timeout that they didn't have.

Gerrit Would you try to stop him?

Richard Yeah, I would. Yeah, that's what I would. I wouldn't try to stop Abraham Lincoln's assassin. I try to be like, hey, Chris, you are out of timeout.

Gerrit We are out of time. If you call a timeout, it's a technical vow.

Richard That's what I would do if I had that.

Gerrit Well, but it's, it's, it is pretty fascinating, right? You don't even have to get a DeLorean. You don't even have to get it up to 88. We could visit those places. And when there, we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these Western lands or in China, we are there. In fact, we are like the light of morning, or I will not say the electric fluid, but its operations on the wires. God has revealed some little things with regard to His movements and His power, and the operation and motion of lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability and power of the Almighty. If you could stretch a wire from this room around the world until the two ends nearly meet again, and were to apply a battery to one end, if the electrical conditions were perfect, the effect of the touch would pass with such inconceivable velocity that it would be felt at the other end of the wire in the same moment.

Gerrit This is what the faithful saints are coming to. They will possess this power, and if they wish to visit different planets, they will be there. If the Lord wished to visit his children here, he is here. If he wished to send one of his angels to the earth to speak to some of his children, he is here. When we pass into the spirit world, we shall possess a measure of this power. So this is by degrees. One of the things that I think is not fully comprehended is what the stage is going to be like when we are in the spirit world as a righteous person, as someone who's kept the faith, but I'm in the spirit world, but I'm not yet resurrected. Now, we did read last week that Joseph Smith's going to have a bunch of evil spirits haranguing him and that he has the power to disperse them. What were you going to say, Richard?

Richard This is fascinating. I've never heard this before. This is, what a cool concept, this idea. But of course, that makes so much sense how God and Jesus can visit wherever. Of course they could.

Gerrit Yeah, that's the best part about being all-powerful, is that you're all-powerful.

Richard But he's explaining it though. It's kind of interesting, right? He's kind of getting into it.

Gerrit The way he's trying to describe it, right? So the power, he goes on, the power the faithful will possess then will far exceed that of the spirit world. So he's showing it by degrees. So if you're righteous, when you first go into the spirit world, you will have an increased measure of power than you do here. And I think that's the reason why, you know, he and others will say, look, Satan is not going to have any power. The evil spirits aren't have any power over the righteous in the in the spirit world, even though they haven't been resurrected yet, right? Because they have greater power, even though they haven't gotten everything yet. But then after the resurrected, the power of the faithful will far exceed that of the spirit world. But that enjoyed in the spirit world is so far beyond this life as to be inconceivable without the spirit of revelation.

Gerrit So apparently, there is a manifest difference in your spiritual power just by being a righteous person going into the spirit world.

Richard Well, that's in the Doctrine and Covenants, right? You have so much more advantage in the world.

Gerrit Advantage in the next, yeah. That whatever principle of knowledge you obtain to, right? That you have that advantage in the next world. And that kind of leads to, you know, we talked about this before, that Brigham Young at least believed. Now, the church doesn't have an established doctrine on this, okay? You can actually quote apostles and prophets on both sides of this idea about eternal progression that would lead between kingdoms, right? But Brigham Young believed that you could progress between kingdoms, but that it would just take so much longer because you didn't make those and keep those covenants here, right? So Brigham at least expresses to Wilford Woodruff this idea that you actually could progress eternally. Now again, that is not the doctrine of the church. The church's doctrine is we don't know.

Gerrit That's the church's doctrine that hasn't been revealed, but at least, you know, Wilford Woodruff has that quote from Brigham Young in his journal. So what will it be like in the next life? In the spirit world, we are free from all of our pains and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence. And we have the Father speak to us, and Jesus speak to us, and angels speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection. So I know last couple of episodes, some people have felt very uncomfortable. So there's like a whole bunch of Gadianton murderers that are just like wandering around me, especially if I'm at a McDonald's in Centerville, or, but one of the things that Brigham is expressing here is that when you go into the next world, you do have communion with Jesus and with the Father, and you have more power anyway, that you won't be beholden to these evil spirits in the other world.

Gerrit So that was one of the things people were worried about. That's part of the reason why I wanted to share this. Let me conclude what he says to our friends. I will say to Sister Spencer and to the relatives and friends of the deceased, dry up your tears. Live your religion. We have nothing to sorrow for here without it is for sinful conduct. I say also to my young brothers and sisters, live your religion. Try to fill up the measure of your creation and usefulness. You have a work to do to prepare for a more exalted sphere than this. Outsiders have a great deal to say about the trials of our females. He's making, because this is when they're practicing polygamy. Are the trials of our females to compare with the sorrows that the wicked world have to pass through? Not by any means. Their sorrow and grief are unto death. Our trials are to make us perfect and to prepare us for the reward of the just.

Gerrit So he goes on to talk about, you know, none of us really know when we will die. You don't know. We have no lease on our lives, he says. Who knows, but some of us will meet with an accident going from this house and will be in eternity an hour from this time. This is the reason why you always pray, help us get home safely. Because Brigham's like, I don't know, probably something you're going to wreck on the way home. You will not drop off there is here. You will stay there, except those who were destroyed by the second death. Well, then what is this world? I am sorry to see anyone so enveloped in ignorance as to see nothing else but the enjoyment of this world, or to hear them say, oh, this is all that I can ask for. I want my riches and my finery. And I may enjoy the society of my rich friends and be happy.

Gerrit And I want to lavish upon myself and my family, all the heart can wish for. The whole wicked world is in this condition of mind. No matter who they are, from kings, queens, emperors on their thrones, down to the laborer and his humble cot. But true happiness is unknown amongst them. They do not enjoy themselves and all their pleasures leave a pang or a sting behind. The rich and great may pass a few hours in visiting their friends, or they may glut themselves with the luxury of the earth. But all this leaves a sting behind. The humble, faithful saints care not for this. They know this earth is not their permanent abiding place. And when they look forward to eternity, the prospect is bright and glorious. Yes, there is my home. There is my family. There are my friends. There is my heaven.

Gerrit There is my father. And I am going to dwell with him to all eternity. These are the hopes and aspirations of every heart, and the expressions of every faithful saint. And they will learn more and more, and be exalted from one degree of glory to another, until they become gods, even the sons of God. Then what is this earth and its present condition? Nothing, but a place in which we may learn the first lessons towards exaltation. That is obedience to the gospel of the Son of God. So that's a pretty cool sermon, isn't it? Where he, I often think, you know, Joseph did this a lot when he spoke at a funeral orations. He, he felt that the best way to help someone feel better about the things that had happened was to remind them of what the purpose of this life is.

Gerrit The plan of salvation, as comforting as it is, when you're drawing circles on the board, is far more comforting when you're asking those great questions of life. Why? Why is there suffering? Why is there death? Why am I separated from people I care about? And frankly, I know that myself, so I'll only indict myself, but I'm sure others might feel the same way. We take for granted some of the questions we never ask because we never needed to. Because of the power that is in the revelations that Joseph Smith received and the prophets that followed him, because we have the additional scripture that we have, we don't ask the same questions.

Gerrit Latter-day Saints, believing Latter-day Saints, I mean, obviously, you're like Bill the Adulterer, you might probably sit around wondering.

Richard Well, he's got a testimony. He struggles.

Gerrit He struggles. Well, you know, we all know where they are, but don't meet Bill by yourself. Latter-day Saints, we don't sit and ask the question, what is the purpose of this life? I don't think we appreciate how incredibly liberating that is. That, yes, we struggle. We have all kinds of things we can't answer, and we can ask questions like, why did God allow this horrible thing to happen? Why didn't God intervene? We have all kinds of questions we can ask as well. But a believing Latter-day Saint knows who they are, and not just as a creation of God, but as a child of heavenly parents that has the same potential to become as those parents are.

Gerrit A believing Latter-day Saint does not see the purpose of this life as meaningless and the suffering that takes place. A believing Latter-day Saint sees this life as Brigham said, as a stepping stone towards eternity. In another funeral sermon that Brigham Young gave, he said, it has been the idea of many that the spirit goes directly to God who gave it. That's from Ecclesiastes, right? Does it remain there? Go on the great battlefields of the past if they could be seen, the spirits of the slain are hovering around the dust. They stay about this earth until there is another call for them. The kingdom in place where Brother Spencer is is called the dwell he will be in. Every departed spirit is subject to the laws that govern the spirit world. What do we gain by being faithful to the gospel of the Son of God?

Gerrit We gain life and salvation. Salvation in this world and the world to come. When they leave the body, those spirits are free from the power of the enemy. There are wicked men in the spirit world. That's again, reiteration that in the spirit world, not just the spirits that fell from heaven, men who have died, who are, I guess we might say Gadianton-esque. There are wicked men in the spirit world. Millions of those in the spirit world will have the privilege of receiving the gospel in the spirit that they may be judged according to men in the flesh. And no doubt, many will reject the gospel there. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. The faithful elders who leave this world will preach to the spirits in prison in the spirit world. In that world, there are millions and millions to every elder who leaves here.

Gerrit And yet every spirit will be preached to that has had a tabernacle on this earth and become accountable. This is the plan of salvation. Jesus will never cease his work until all are brought under the enjoyment of a kingdom in the mansion of his father, where there are many kingdoms and many glories to suit the works and faithfulness of all men who have lived on earth. Some will obey the celestial law and receive its glory. Some will abide the terrestrial and some the terrestrial. Others will receive a glory. So you're going to go on and quote that. But this idea that this earth life is a preparatory thing is a big part of it. Now, I know we're running out of time again, and I told you it was only going to be part of it, and I lied. That, you know, do you remember that song? I said, I loved you, but I lied.

Gerrit You remember that?

Richard Yes, I do. Yeah, sorry, I was singing it on mute.

Gerrit He was overcome with joy by me mentioning that song.

Richard Yeah, I was so excited about it. Yes, I am familiar with that song. What's the... You're going to sing a couple...

Gerrit Am I going to sing? So you're not familiar with it?

Richard No, no, I just, every time I hear it, I whistle a little bit. You know, I said, I love you.

Gerrit No, yeah, I can't sing it. It's very high-pitched, you know? Said I love you, but I lied, because this is more than love I feel inside. You know?

Richard That's pretty good. Yeah, yeah. Said I loved you, but I lied.

Gerrit No, look at that.

Richard Yeah, that's great. You're a regular Aaron Neville over there.

Gerrit Said I love you, but I was broke. Anyway, there was a lot that we still want to cover, but to the point of the question of the first place, I know, look, we used the Gadianton Robbers. I mean, frankly, they use people their whole lives. So I just used them. As a vehicle to talk about the spirit world and the great things that have been revealed about the spirit world. It's not always just a tangent. Sometimes I use questions as vehicles to do what I already wanted to do. If that isn't apparent to you yet, it will be unless you're a missionary who's about to stop listening to the podcast. So this is an 1861 sermon that Brigham is talking about. We are not destroyed, but are the Latter-day Saints preparing themselves for the calamities that are coming upon the earth? Now this is right as the Civil War is breaking out. Or are they covetous? There is no trait in the character of men what the devil, but what the devil, the opposer of all good understands.

Gerrit Our common foe is an ingenious workman. He's a master at his business. Bunyan speaks of a city that was perfectly given up to idolatry and needed only one devil to watch the whole of it. This is not, this is not Paul Bunyan.

Richard Okay. I assume it was actually.

Gerrit Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Although if he says the, if he says blue, my ox, then I'm going to know.

Gerrit He said, babe, babe, babe, babe, my blue ox. Yes.

Richard Babe, my blue ox.

Intro Babe, the blue ox. Yes.

Richard Yes. Thank you.

Gerrit Not the same thing as. Very different. As being named blue, which I think means you've been watching too many blues clues.

Richard Yes. Thank you.

Gerrit Not the same thing as. Very different. As being named blue, which I think means you've been watching too many blues clues.

Richard Yes, I have actually.

Gerrit Yeah. But one saint, a poor old man walking through the streets, required a score of devils to watch him. The city was already in possession of the evil one, and it needed no one. It needed no care or watching. There are scores of evil spirits here. Spirits of the old Gadianton Robbers. Some of them who inhabited these mountains and used to go into the south to afflict the Nephites. There are millions of those spirits in the mountains, and they are ready to make us covetous if they can. They are ready to lead astray every man and woman that wishes to be a Latter-day Saint. This may seem strange to some of you, but you will see them as soon as your spirits are unlocked from these tabernacles, and you are in the spirit world, and you will there have to contend against evil spirits as we have to contend against wicked persons here.

Gerrit How about that for throwing some dead? So he says there are millions. Now, that sermon for the Cutlers was not given in Centerville.

Richard Yeah. Where was that one given?

Gerrit That one's in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake. Apparently, there's a bunch of Gadiantons there. But it's back to this point of where that, the question was, where does that even come from? Well, the reason why people say it is because Brigham Young taught it multiple times. And it was also taught by Huber C. Kimball. And so people talk about it. And look, I don't want to get into like, oh, what are the evil spirits doing? Where are they? And, you know, how many are following me around? Well, apparently they don't need to follow me around because they've already got me doing whatever they want. Right? So they just move right on past it. They're like, do we need to spend some time on Gerrit? No, we've already got, we've got zero evil spirits assigned to him, and he's already, he's already talking about sports betting picks on a church-related podcast. But there's one more that I want to share again, because Brigham Young talks about it.

Gerrit I really should have started with this one because this is really, well, I mean, I guess they're all kind of out of order. This is in 1867. So, this is after the Civil War. And I realize we're probably way over on time. Are we way over on time, Richard?

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit I mean, how many of you have just hit unsubscribe to the podcast?

Richard Yeah, we're getting those numbers, even though we're recording this days before. The numbers are rolling in. It's pretty dramatic.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, we've lost all of our missionary listeners, even though we... Richard did, he did an upgrade. So instead of having like 15 Google drives, he was able to put them all in one Google account.

Richard So that's actually, it's funny you say that. I was on, the reason I was on mute is I was actually working with Brady to help get this all set up. Brady's...

Gerrit So it's still not working?

Richard No, no, no. He was able to fix my incompetence and was able to get it. So the back and forth sounds that iMessage makes on a computer is distracting, which is why I was on mute when you were singing the Brian Adams song, was it?

Gerrit I... Is it Brian Adams who said, I love you, but I'm not sure? Probably.

Richard You know what? We'll get the Crack Research staff on that.

Gerrit It's got to be. It's got to be that. I mean, if we were, if our wives were here, you know, our wives used to sleep through our recordings, they've gotten to the point where now they're completely ambivalent.

Richard Oh my gosh. It's Michael Bolton. Not even close.

Gerrit I was going to say, I don't think it's Brian Adams, but yeah.

Richard Yeah. Michael, Michael Bolton. Because it's more than love I feel inside. That's the issue.

Gerrit Yeah. No, I said I loved you, but I lied. I just like I said, we're going to be done. Not yet. Got one more to say. This is in 1867. Brigham's talking about how, look, you need to do what's right. You don't need to only do things if you're commanded to do it. I say this to you that you may understand that I feel just as patient and just as kind towards Latter-day Saints as a man's heart can feel. I'm careful to take every precaution in directing their steps to the possession of eternal life in the presence of God, that none may be lost. My course is not to scold, but to persuade and entreat the people to do their duty, holding before them the reward of faithfulness. It requires all the care and faithfulness, which we can exercise in order to keep the faith of the Lord Jesus. For there are invisible agencies around us in sufficient numbers to encourage the slightest disposition that they may discover in us to forsake the true way and to fan into a flame, the slightest spark of discontent and unbelief.

Gerrit Now, I think just about every person listening has experienced this to the point where when you're talking with a good friend or family member and they say something in a tone or in a way, critical of the prophet or of the church or of its history, and it's the first time you hear it, but it's that spark. But how quickly if you feed oxygen on that doubting flame or that critical flame, does it come to consume the entire person? It's funny, the other day on social media, and someone posted something to the effect of, I don't understand why people leave the church, have to spend their entire lives just attacking it. If it's not true, just go and do something else. Why do you spend all your time on it?

Gerrit Why are you constantly posting negative, hateful things about it, right? And I think Latter-day Saints and his other question. One of the people who responded to him, attacked him and said that's wrong. You're just making up what people who do leave the church. I've left the church and I don't do that. So I clicked on that person's profile and read a half dozen of their last posts, which were all anti-mormon posts and links to other things. So it was very funny that his response was, you're a liar. People who leave the church don't do that. Legitimately, this guy's last six months, like every post is how much he hates the church. So, I mean, maybe not everybody does it, but some people do it, at least you do. Anyway, but I think that's an important way to think about both our testimony and unbelief. There are sparks there, and whatever fuel you decide to give it, that's what's going to grow.

Gerrit I meet with people all the time who feel like they've lost their testimony, and all of them, all of them, have stopped studying the scriptures and the words of the living prophet as much as they are studying anti-Mormon subreddits, the letter to the CES Director, and things like that. If you want to maintain your faith, it's not just between you and God. What Brigham Young and these other quotes we shared, look, there are countless evil spirits, some that fell with Satan, and some that have passed away from this life, the Gadiantons of old, that are desperately trying to destroy your faith. When you give place to that disbelief, and then you fuel it and you fan it, it is actually not a surprise that what you end up with is disbelief, because it's actually what you fuel.

Gerrit Brigham goes on. The spirits of the ancient Gadiantons are around us. You may see battlefield after battlefield, scattered over the American continent, where the wicked have slain the wicked. Their spirits are watching us continually for an opportunity to influence us to do evil, or to make us decline in the performance of our duties. And I will defy any man on earth to be more gentlemanly and bland in his manners than the master spirit of all evil. We call him the devil, a gentleman so smooth and so oily that he can almost deceive the very elect. We have been baptized by men having authority, the holy priesthood of the son of God, and consequently, we have power over him, which the rest of the world does not possess. And all who possess the power of the priesthood have the power and right to rebuke those evil spirits.

Gerrit When we rebuke those evil powers and they obey not, it is because we do not live so as to have the power of God, which is our privilege to have. If we do not live for this privilege and right, then we are under condemnation. So here again, Brigham is making this clear statement of the powers of evil that are arrayed against us. So we'll leave this topic and move on to another topic next week. I mean, maybe, I mean, frankly, we'll do whatever. And but I really think that one of the takeaways from this is understanding how very real the spirit world is. Understanding how very real the evil spirits of the fall of Satan are. And they're they're constant, desperate desire to influence you to lose your faith and to commit acts of evil. But you can't despair, right? You can't be like, oh, there's nothing I can do because I'm surrounded by a bunch of Gadiantons.

Gerrit No, the God has promised us that that we have power over those spirits, that we have the ability to resist that temptation. Of course, we all sin. Of course, we fall down lots, but we can also get back up again. Remember who you are. You are a spirit child of heavenly parents who did not follow Satan. You are someone who said, I know that it's going to be terrible. I know that it's going to be awful. I know that I'm going to struggle. I know that I'm going to suffer. But if that's the only way that I can become like my Heavenly Father, then I'm going to go to earth and have a mortal life so that I can learn and grow to become like my Heavenly Father. Satan will never have that ability.

Gerrit And so he tries to destroy your potential. So remember, it's not just thoughts that pop into your head. There really is an enemy, an actual being from the unseen world, as Joseph Smith described. But you can have power over those evil spirits. Whether it's a million gadiantons or one, you know, one that's following you around. By exercising your faith, repenting of our sins, and seeking to put first the kingdom of God and nothing else, God will bless us and protect us. So thanks so much for joining us. And for those of you who hated this topic, don't worry, we'll find others that you'll hate more.

Intro Thank you for listening to Joseph Smith and the Restoration, a Standard of Truth Podcast production by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. Join us for our next episode. For our other productions, please visit standardoftruth.com.

Gadianton Robbers Part 4 (Heavenly Travel)

Still alive

"Like Rebecca," song from the church's 1990s Old Testament seminary videos

Rebecca, listener email (the original woman in labor)

Social Security Administration and NameCensus data on the name Heber

The North Avenue Irregulars (Disney, 1979)

Gordon B. Hinckley, 2005 general conference address on gambling

Carrie, listener email from California

Wilford Woodruff sermon, 1880

Saturday's Warrior (film)

Brigham Young, funeral sermon, 1871 (for a daughter of the Spencer family)

Brigham Young, 1871 funeral sermon, on the clog of dirt

Brigham Young, 1871 funeral sermon, on heavenly travel

Brigham Young, 1871 funeral sermon, the telegraph wire illustration

D&C 130:18-19 (identified, not cited on air)

Wilford Woodruff journal, Brigham Young on progression between kingdoms (not dated on air)

Brigham Young, 1871 funeral sermon, to Sister Spencer and family

Brigham Young, 1871 funeral sermon, on the faithful's home

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (identified, not cited on air)

Brigham Young, another funeral sermon (for Brother Spencer)

John Bunyan (cited by Brigham Young)

Brigham Young, 1861 sermon in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, on Gadianton robbers

Brigham Young, 1867 sermon

Letter to a CES Director (mentioned)

Brigham Young, 1867 sermon, on the ancient Gadiantons and priesthood power

Why did Richard text Gerrit a flurry of usernames and passwords?

From 1861 to 1997

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words