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S6E8 · The Book of Enoch Part 2 (Giants in the Land)
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Standard of Truth · Season 6 · Episode 8 · 1:11:04

The Book of Enoch Part 2 (Giants in the Land)

The Book of Enoch blames the world's wickedness on fallen angels who married mortal women and fathered giants 3,000 ells tall, which Richard works out to about two Burj Khalifas stacked up.

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The question ·
My question is this, since The Chosen is written and produced by evangelicals with some LDS influence, is there some changing in philosophy amongst other Christian faith traditions to allow for a doctrine such as we believe about the purpose of angels?
Jeff (listener)

Richard checks in from Yuma on his way to Japan, and a Montana listener reports Russian-speaking missionaries who know Elder Abel. Jeff, whose skepticism now covers Applebee's specials, asks whether The Chosen showing Joseph comforting Jesus in Gethsemane means other Christians are warming to the Latter-day Saint idea that angels once lived on earth. Gerrit says there is a big gap between what divinity schools teach and what people feel, and shares what Dallas Jenkins said about the scene. Then he returns to the Book of Enoch and its story of the Watchers, and warns that much of it is false doctrine. Early Christian writers like Clement and Justin Martyr borrowed its explanation for evil, and Irenaeus is left as a cliffhanger.

Who comes upEnochJoseph of NazarethJesus ChristJudeDallas JenkinsGabrielMichael the archangelBruce R. McConkieSemjazaAzazelClementJustin Martyr
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Live from Yuma

Richard mourns a lost brisket place in Arizona before heading to Japan to look for Bountiful.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend and fellow compatriot in the podcasting world, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Suzuki sidekick, hellos, Gerrit, to you. We're so glad to be here. Here I am in the heart of Yuma, Arizona, on remote. Very excited to be back. Thank you.
Gerrit I mean, Yuma, Arizona, just, did you do some sightseeing?
Richard I did. I did, I did. There used to be a barbecue place that isn't there anymore from when I was there 10 years ago. And so I went by and just had a nice remembrance of a nice brisket. And then-
Gerrit You just sat there and you poured out, you poured out your sprite in memory of a brisket that you once had.
Richard I did. I poured one out for that. It was a delicious brisket. It was some Tex-Mex associated with it. I don't know that there's a better combination for anything other than maybe Tex-Mex. The barbecue and the Mexican food together, beautiful. It's a beautiful thing, Gerrit.
Gerrit Now, while you are on remote right now, I believe that by the time this drops, you're going to be even more remote.
Richard I will be just outside of, let's see, this is Thursday. I will be in Kyoto, Japan, where the search for Pahoran's mother-in-law's sublet apartment continues.
Gerrit It begins in Japan and then it goes on from there.
Richard It started in Yuma and I will not rest until I find it.
Gerrit You're just trying to find a Book of Mormon model that works for you. Hokkaido has a narrow neck of land and that's where you've gone now.
Richard Have we thought perhaps that Japan was the land of Bountiful? Have we ever thought about that?
Gerrit I'm exploring it. We know that Helium is building ships and where do they end up? We are doing a little bit of pre-recording. It makes our timeliness in our conversations about sports even worse than they would normally be because as we're recording this, BYU just barely beat Baylor, barely. But by the time you listen to this, I'm sure they will have lost several more games.
Richard Yes, they barely beat Baylor is great alliteration. I think that, so we used to, what we used to do is we used to get together in person for like a long weekend and record like eight episodes in a week. And so that was where lots of fun was had, where we would predict games that happened two months ago.
Gerrit Yes.
Richard And I would still be wrong. If nothing else.
Gerrit Like you could actually look at the result and be like, nope. You know, just this week we should be like, so what do you think the over under is on turnovers for the Super Bowl and then have you guess it, but still not be right?
Richard Oh, never. It's the one thing that we are, if nothing else, it's consistently wrong on all picks of sports, which actually I feel like I'm proving President Hinckley's 2005 conference address as prophetic. If I would have put money on any of the things, I would be even more homeless than I currently am.
Gerrit Yeah, well, and that's the truth. Speaking of prophetic, again, by the time someone hears this, it will be a little bit more removed, but President Oaks just came and spoke at BYU. And did you have a chance to listen to that, Richard?
Richard No, but I was making picks on Cal Shee to things that he would say.
Gerrit Made a cool thousand dollars. Wow, you have, you have, and Richard has reached a new low. But, you know, he gave a great address, you know, encouraging students to, that they needed to take care of their testimony. And, and he specifically made a mention that people needed to, to not be going to, you know, negative sources about things like church history. And he, and he made a reference to podcasts. Well, I, you know, of course, no sooner did he say that, that multiple antagonistic podcasts started celebrating on the internet, that they had become so important in their assaults on the church, that, that President Oaks mentioned them.
Gerrit Albeit in a negative light saying, stay away from them.
Richard Congratulations. The prophet of the Lord said that you are, you know, a tool of the devil. Congratulations. You're, you've done it.
Gerrit Yeah. It's what I always wanted to achieve. And I finally, you know, I started at the bottom, now I'm here. Which is probably not exactly what they were thinking. But well, what do we have in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag before we jump right back in to what everyone wants to know? And that is the Book of Enoch? Question mark?
Richard That's no, you did leave us on a bit of a cliffhanger. I think that there is some excitement about it. These last couple of episodes that we've done have been a lot of fun. So I'm excited to get into this. Now, I'm going to poorly read a couple of emails here. The first email comes to us from a sister, McNeil. She's a service missionary that emailed us to say, a couple of missionaries came by last week that were actually assigned to Russians speaking, if I remember right. And their name tags did bear that out. One was indeed from that part of the world. And the other, I believe, was from Montana. Obviously, Russian speaking part of the Billings. The number of Russian speakers, I mean, teaming with Russians.
Gerrit You stop at a truck stop in Butte, and good luck. You'll go in and you'll be like, hey, do you guys have any fresh sandwiches? And what you get back sounds like the before they translate Vladimir Putin. I mean, it's just all Russian all the time in Montana.
Richard You can't swing a dead cat in Missoula without hitting several babushkas.
Gerrit Yeah, it's all Russian all the time. Although I'll tell you what, you know, and maybe because do you remember the movie Hunt for Red October?
Richard Oh, I love that movie. Yeah.
Gerrit And the one first officer who's trying to defect. Remember what his dream was?
Richard No.
Gerrit Oh, oh, you love the movie, but you don't remember.
Richard Oh, he, it's been a minute. Was it to go to Bucky's?
Gerrit It was to, he and Marco Ramius, the, the Russian captain who was absconding with the ship with, with the Russian sub trying to defect to the United States. They have a con, they're having a conversation with each other about what are they going to do when they get to America? And his first officer says that I would like to buy a pickup truck and drive from state to state. And I would like to live in Montana, you know, and raise. And he says, I will raise fat rabbits and I will have a wife cook them for me. And then he suggests I might actually need two wives if I'm going to drive state to state. So, you know, now he does get, you know, spoiler alert, if you haven't seen a film from, what is it, 1992 or something. I have no idea when that film came out, but it's.
Richard 1990. They're very good, very close.
Gerrit Yeah, it was a long time ago. He gets killed and his last words are, you know, I would have liked to have seen Montana, you know, and it's, it's sad and. But. Maybe, maybe a whole bunch of Russian defectors have moved to Montana and that's where this native speaking Montana missionary speaking Russian is coming from.
Richard Now, I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but Sean Connery, I believe, has a Scottish Russian accent.
Gerrit And I mean, he is Scottish, but he's like, yeah, he doesn't do the Russian accent as well as some of the others. But I mean, he has the iconic line to the American agent, the Jack Ryan, which is Alec Baldwin, right? That's where he says where Alec Baldwin is chasing after the, you know, this guy who's trying to kill them on the sub. And he says, Ryan, be careful. Most things on the ship don't react well to bullets. And it's such a funny way that he says it, that Alec Baldwin character actually repeats it as he's crawling through like a bay, chasing after this guy's like, be careful, Ryan, most things.
Richard That was, that was a spot on Russian accent you did there.
Gerrit Yeah, no, no, it was a Sean Connery. That's what I know.
Richard I know. That's a joke, right?
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard So here she is with these Russian people in Montana.
Gerrit Ask them if they were Litners from, from Montana.
Richard She is from Montana, speaking Russian missionaries. That's right.
Gerrit Okay. There we go.
Richard Yes. Russian missionaries, missionaries speaking Russian from Montana. One of them was. And asked if they were Litners to the podcast, and if they knew Richard and Elder Abel, and they answered in the affirmative. So congratulations to President Abel.
Gerrit I feel like we should call him Pontiff Abel at this point. That in his rapid accession, he ended up becoming the Catholic Church. It just happened. The next thing you know, he was Archbishop Abel.
Richard Thank you so much for all you are doing. It has filled countless hours of my existence as I was listening to episodes over and over again and learned something new every time. I'm listening to all the premium content now for the first time. So much fun. All of the shenanigans per se, which is, I believe.
Gerrit So she may not want to use that word after our last premium.
Richard She used that word shenanigans when you went full, the dandometer was over a million.
Gerrit If you haven't listened to our latest premium episode, in passing, John C. Bennett came up and I lost it for 15 minutes. I don't even know what's wrong. I need to go to a therapist, talk to them like, what's your trauma? John C. Bennett, we're going to have to have a conversation.
Richard Hold on. Do you remember, is it Return of the Pink Panther, where the guy's in the mental institution and he can't handle even the thought of Inspector Clouseau without being driven to just madness? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Gerrit I haven't seen it.
Richard Oh my gosh. I think I have that right. It's one of the greatest Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther. I believe it's Return of Pink Panther. Anyway, you'd love it. There's nice President Ford comments about watching football games. I think you'd enjoy it very much. Anyway, so he can't even have Clouseau's name come up without him being driven to a homicidal rage.
Gerrit So you're comparing him to me? Yes. Well, if you were ever wondering should I get the premium content, frankly, what better way to sell it than apparently I am a crazy person?
Richard So much, all the shenanigans per se is so much my cup of tea. I would expand on that, but what is in my head would not come out the same on paper. That is not my cup of tea. You would end so confused and wonder what anything I said was about. Just keep doing this. It's so informative and fun all the time, Sister McNeil.
Gerrit Well, thank you. That's very nice of her. And when she said that your content is so much fun, she's got what, seven exclamation points? I mean, she is letting us know that she likes the fun. So for all the people that are currently writing an email right now saying, why do you laugh on your podcast? I don't like it. We also get emails from other people saying, please keep doing it exactly the same way you're doing it.
Richard It's very, yes, it's very good. And it was seven exclamation points. Good memory. Since becoming a litner, this comes to us from Jeff. Since becoming a litner, I have discovered a new level of-
Gerrit I think you need to read the title to this email though. The subject line.
Richard You know what? I don't- I have the- Do you mean the introduction?
Gerrit No, no. Well, the subject line is don't call it a comeback. I've been here for years. I think he's trying to play off of our old rap references.
Richard Yes. We are a fan of the hip and the hop and the hibbity to the hip hop from the 80s and 90s. Since becoming a litner, I have discovered a new level of scepticism I didn't know existed. Well, good. I'm happy to hear that. I am constantly asking my children to cite their sources on the reasons why they can't seem to become contributing members of society. I've had similar discussions with my children.
Gerrit The problem is there's no source to cite. It's just a finger pointed right back at their chest.
Richard Last night, while dining at a fine establishment, I questioned our Applebee's server if what they were telling me were in fact the daily specials or are you just telling me what you think I want to hear when we all know if I come back tomorrow, I will again hear the same daily special. That raised eyebrow that is now permanently affixed on my face now points at you.
Gerrit Oh boy. It's coming for us.
Richard I know. While watching the Gethsemane scene of The Chosen, they portrayed the angel that came to comfort Jesus as Joseph. Interesting. I was moved to tears with the thought of such a compassionate Heavenly Father who would send Jesus's earthly father to comfort him at such a time. While I know this is speculation, man, do I want that to be true. I know that having an angel that is someone who once lived on earth is a doctrine unique to us. My question is this, since The Chosen is written and produced by evangelicals with some LDS influence, is there some changing in philosophy amongst other Christian faith traditions to allow for a doctrine such as we believe about the purpose of angels? Or in addition to your miserable sports picks, do I need to question everything else I have ever been told on your alleged podcast? So he's questioning even if the podcast exists. You put podcast in quotes, by the way.
Richard Thank you.
Gerrit So as though this wasn't even a podcast. I mean, you should, I mean, if you're going to put in quotes, I mean, even if we were filling you with misinformation, it would still be a podcast.
Richard Yeah. Your level of skepticism is officially too high. That you feel like everything.
Gerrit I can no longer believe that a podcast exists. That now you end up in the Inspector Clouseau Insane Asylum. I mean, that's where you're headed if you're like, and on this quote unquote computer that you quote unquote turn on. I mean, just if you're starting to put air quotes around nouns, that's a real problem.
Richard Thank you, doctors. If you are in fact who you say you are, keep up the great work. I for one, am stronger in my faith for the service since I'm not a premium subscriber you have provided sincerely, Jeff.
Gerrit First of all, we shouldn't even have read his email because he's not a premium subscriber.
Richard He's not in labor and he's not premium.
Gerrit All of the answers you're looking for are on the premium side of the content, Jeff. If you really care, you'll really dig in. Good question. Now, he's from St. Augustine, Florida, you said?
Richard He is.
Gerrit I believe, I mean, I'd have to go, I'm sure that'd be challenged on this, but I believe St. Augustine is the oldest European settlement in what will later become the United States.
Richard There you go. And by the way, I do have the name of the person from Return of the Pink Panther. It is Commissioner Dreyfus. Oh, yes. So that's what you reminded me of, Commissioner Dreyfus.
Gerrit So you're saying I'm crazy and also inept at my job.
Richard I'm saying that he was incredibly rational and very put together. And then as soon as he mentioned Inspector Clouseau, he went to strangle his psychiatrist.
Gerrit I see. Interesting. Now, a great question. You don't need to doubt everything, let alone nouns, Jeff. So there is a divide, and you're gonna see this divide more and more if you study Christian theology. There is a gigantic divide between what is taught in divinity school as doctrine and what culturally people want to believe and think. So already, you have all kinds of things like shows like Highway to Heaven and Touched by an Angel and stuff like that, that portray angels as looking like people, right? Angels can look like people because they're creations of God in standard Christian theology. They are creations. In fact, one of the arguments about creation that's had amongst Christian theologians is when were the angels created?
Gerrit Because if God's creating everything out of nothing, and that means, you know, so, you know, let there be light and so it was, right? Well, there's nowhere in that creation sequence that talks about God creating angels. So actually, Christian theologians have arguments over when angels were created. And of course, people will say, well, he has to create them after he creates the heavens, because if he hasn't created the heavens yet, then where are the angels when he creates them? Like he has to create the heavens first or there's no angels. What's really interesting about that entire line of conversation is what does it presuppose? It presupposes that angels at some point had to be created because God created everything out of nothing.
Gerrit But the question they don't ask is what if those angels always existed? Then I guess God wouldn't be creating them. And you can see the line of blasphemy that you would very quickly go down by mentioning that to a Christian friend. But in part, I mean, it is a really good question to ask. If angels are such a central part of God's plan, if they are considered higher than people, how come we aren't told when God created them? Why isn't that part of the creation story? You know, for a latter day saint, you know, we have an understanding that comes from Joseph Smith, that an actual angel, not the same thing as a spirit that visits you, but an actual angel is a resurrected being. Now, part of the problem too is you're approaching this question on the basis of a, yes, evangelically written Christian show loved by Latter-day Saints, by the way.
Gerrit Latter-day Saints, they're all in on it. But just because it's portrayed as such does not mean that it's doctrine. And I have to tell you that that specific thing you are referencing was lambasted among evangelical Christians after it was shown because it was changing what the Bible says, the Bible. And so in fairness to the person who produced The Chosen, he explained that it wasn't actually Joseph coming to visit Jesus. It was a vision or like a thought memory that Jesus had coming to visit him. In fact, this is such a controversy that in one of his interviews that he does, he actually has to respond to this.
Gerrit Dallas Jenkins is the person who produces The Chosen. And in an interview, he's asked this specifically. A common fan question Jenkins said is, there's been a common question about Joseph visiting Jesus. Why didn't they send an angel? Why did they send Joseph? Well, in the Garden of Gethsemane, The Chosen depicts Jesus receiving a visit from his earthly father, Joseph. The Bible says that Jesus was comforted by angels in the Garden of Gethsemane, but no record says that Joseph made a visit. Still, it was a scene that Jenkins, quote, thought was powerful. It's just something that we thought artistically and spiritually would have been a beautiful opportunity and a beautiful moment for Jesus to be comforted by his earthly father. I am not saying that Joseph is an angel. So he's saying it very directly.
Gerrit I am not saying that Joseph is an angel. I just think there's something that would have been comforting to Jesus in the moment. So if you're asking, has the theology of our fellow Christians shifted on angels? No. And in point of fact, the creator of the very scene you're talking about specifically says, I am not saying that Joseph is an angel. Now, you wouldn't have to have that conversation to a Latter-day Saint. A Latter-day Saint would question you about the identity of the angel visiting Jesus, but wouldn't have to have the conversation about whether or not Joseph could be an angel visiting Jesus. As beautiful as the scene was and as touched as you were by, and of course, there is nothing in it. This is created out of whole cloth, the idea that Joseph is the one that comforts Jesus.
Gerrit Actually, in standard Christian tradition, it's the angel Gabriel that visits Jesus. Now, that is not taken as doctrine, but if you look at early medieval writers, they will say, since Gabriel is the one who announced Jesus' birth, it would have been Gabriel who came and comforted Jesus at the time of his death. And that's just that kind of logical thinking that is made. In Latter-day Saint theology, we don't define who that angel is. Now, that's not the same thing as someone not being willing to speculate.
Richard I was going to say, I mean, I think that Bruce R. McConkie was of the belief that that was Michael.
Gerrit He speculates that it would make sense that it's Michael. And he does, you know, Elder McConkie does say that it's speculation. And then other people quoting him are less careful in saying that it's speculation. So, so you will find probably next year when we get to that portion of the New Testament, that that will be something that has brought up who is this angel that visits them. We don't have Latter-day Saint doctrine on it. And no, we're not deceiving you about what other Christians believe about angels, to the point that even the creator of the show, you know, is, has to publicly respond to the fact that he is not making this doctrinal claim, even though, and even says, look, we just did it because we thought it would be beautiful, artistically and spiritually. And it's the reason why, you know, there's a lot of Christians who love The Chosen.
Gerrit There are a lot of pastors who hate it, and they hate it specifically because of this. They hate it because, I mean, I don't want to draw the same line, but I am frustrated at times when people really believe they know things, and what they mean is they read the work and the glory. And the problem is that they don't recognize the story that's being told, and they're not able to separate that from their spiritual experience they had in reading it. And then this thing that didn't actually happen but was represented in the book starts to be a part of their testimony, even though it didn't actually happen. And so I think there's a lot of Christian theologians, especially Calvinist and conservative theologians, they actually have entire posts about why The Chosen is blasphemy and why it's false doctrine.
Gerrit And this is one of those things that made those rounds. It says, an angel came to visit Jesus, Joseph isn't an angel, what are you doing? So, but that's a good question. And in fact, it's a good lead in for what we want to talk about, because we are talking about angels in part because we're talking about this apocryphal book of Enoch. If you didn't listen to our first part, again, I'm always stunned at someone, anyone who would come in and listen to part two or three of anything, but not listen to part one. But it clearly happens. It happens because of the questions we get. People listen to like part four of Moroni and be like, hey, how come you didn't talk about this? Because that was part one. Did you literally just listen to part four? Is that, you're just like, you know what, I'm going to start wherever. Maybe people listen to the podcast the same way that when people are trying to get inspiration from the scriptures, they just flip it open, put their finger on a scripture.
Gerrit And while that works sometimes for people, like I've done it and it's just like, and heth begat agoth, and agoth begat. Why am I in Deuteronomy and Numbers? It's a lot more tricky when you're doing it with the Bible. I got to tell you. You got to make sure, next thing you know, you land on Song of Solomon. What am I supposed to take from this?
Richard Yeah, yeah, you land on a pomegranate verse, and then there you go.
Gerrit Yeah. But this apocryphal Book of Enoch, just to reset for everybody, was this Jewish book attributed to Enoch that was in circulation at the time of Jesus. And I was even going to tell you that it's clearly being quoted and well known by early Christians. Jude, from the New Testament, will specifically talk about, will specifically quote this portion from the Book of Enoch. Again, Jude, Chapter 1, Verse 14, and Enoch, also the 7th from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds, which they have ungodly committed, and all of their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against them. Then you go to the Book of Enoch, and what do you get?
Gerrit And behold, he cometh with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly, and to convict all the flesh of all the works of ungodliness, which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. So here you have the New Testament. You have a New Testament writer quoting this Book of Enoch as if it were scripture, or at the very least authoritative enough that it's part of the argument about what the Second Coming is going to be like. So that is an important thing to take in when you're dealing with the Book of Enoch. Now I said we were gonna talk about angels. One of the very interesting, one of the early questions that surround the Book of Enoch is that it provides this alternative story of good and evil.
Gerrit And what do I mean by that? Well, we had this conversation about, where do angels fit in? We had that earlier in the podcast. Well, the Book of Enoch attempts to explain why there is such sinfulness in the world by inventing or creating or stating a different narrative about where evil comes from. Now, this is going to be a little bit complex and a little bit convoluted, and we're probably going to have to put some air quotes around the word podcast by the time we're done.
Richard They are trying to solve a fairly complex problem that a lot of people have, right?
Gerrit Yeah. Why is this world so wicked?
Richard Right.
Gerrit And you can blame the fall of Adam, but it seems like that's not enough, right? Billions upon billions upon billions of people condemned forever because Adam and Eve like fruit. Right. That it does seem like the punishment doesn't fit the crime. And so there's this attempt to explain it. And remember, one of the problems that Judaism and Christianity have, and you know, all of my Jewish listeners and all of my Christian listeners are tensing up right now. What do you mean there's a problem? There's not a problem at all. Look, one of the theological problems that both Christians and Jews have to deal with is, you have a question that is difficult to answer that was never difficult to answer in the ancient world. And that is why is the world so terrible?
Gerrit Right. Because in the ancient world, it was super easy. There are all kinds of gods. They're all terrible. And so they do terrible things. And so the world is terrible. Right. So my crops all died because Zeus is terrible. My son died in war because Mars is terrible. Right. The gods were powerful, but they were evil. Judaism, by the time the Book of Enoch is written, and scholars estimate it could be as early as like 300 BC that it's first being written down. And they actually, most scholars argue that it's, it's like, it grows, that, you know, it's written down in portions and then portions are added to and added to and added to. Judaism by that time is, is strictly monotheistic. So, so the problem that Jews and Christians have is, they don't have other gods to blame how horrible the world is on.
Gerrit This is not a problem for a Roman or a Greek. A Greek can easily say, oh my goodness, it's so terribly unfair that my children died in this, in this boat sinking. That must have been Neptune who did that or, you know, that, that must have been Poseidon that did that, that, that, that, that destroyed my, my family. And we, we, why would they do that? Well, because he's evil, because he's powerful and he's evil and he's cruel. And so he does evil and cruel things. But Jews and Christians are not just saying, like many other ancient pagans, my God can beat up your God, which is essentially what, you know, like, I mean, it's literally what the Assyrians say when they're outside of Jerusalem, right? When Rob Shaka, who has the coolest name in all of the Bible, is the Assyrian general, Rob Shaka, who essentially taunts the Israelites in Jerusalem.
Gerrit And one of the things he says is like, do you think your gods are any more powerful than the gods of the Hittites that we destroyed or the gods of the Babylonians that we destroyed? I mean, you're going to trust in your gods? I got news for you. The other gods thing isn't working. Obviously, the Assyrian gods are the most powerful gods. So Jews and Christians are not arguing our god can beat up your god. They are arguing your god doesn't even actually exist. There isn't a Neptune and there isn't an Ashtaroth and there isn't a ball and there isn't anything but God. So when you make that exclusivistic argument that there is only one all-powerful being, and then you make in conjunction with that argument that that one all-powerful being is all good.
Gerrit Well, as you learn from the Music Man, we've got trouble right here in River City, because it's not just a pool hall. It is a world filled with absolute misery and sin, which is easy to explain. When Hera is jealous of Zeus, it's much harder to explain when there's only one divine being and the world is terrible. And so my guess is, and this is obviously speculation, I might as well tell you who the angel who visited Jesus is, but my guess is that the Book of Enoch has its origination in trying to explain where evil comes from in the world, at least in part. Now, a lot of it, now, and the reason why Jude liked it, the reason why early Christians liked it is a lot of the Book of Enoch is he's coming and boy, oh boy, is he coming.
Gerrit And you better get yourself right because he's coming and it's gonna be pretty bad. I mean, the idea of the apocalypse, it's very much apocalyptic literature of the end times. And so you can see why Christians who are being super persecuted in the early Christian church, why Enoch is such a, it's a cool book to them because just like Jude said, hey, everybody's suffering, but guess what? All those more mockers, all those wicked people, all the people persecuting Christians, God's angels are coming and they're going to, they're going to be taking care of some tears, so to speak, right? So it's the kind of literature that a persecuted minority wants to read, that God will eventually make these things right. Now, when you go to the Book of Enoch, it tries to provide this explanation on the basis of angels.
Gerrit And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied, that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. You can already see where this is headed. And the angels, the children of heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said one to another, Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children. So, so you already have this distinction between mankind and angels, that they're two different created beings. And that the one created being that has some greater power, the angels, see mortal women and decide that they are going to go marry them, which is obviously not what God had intended when he created the angels. And Semjaza, so you get to learn some evil angel names in this.
Gerrit So if you're looking for who to name your kid, I'll give you a few here. Semjaza, who is their leader, said unto them, I fear you will not indeed agree to this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin. And they all answered him, meaning all of the angels. They all answered him and said, let us all swear an oath, and let us all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations, not to abandon this plan, but to do this thing. Then swear they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all 200, who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon. And they said in, they called it Mount Hermon because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders. Samalazaz, now I'm saying, there is no part of me that is saying this correctly. So all of the Hebrew speakers listening are like, oh my goodness, oh boy.
Gerrit Now remember, what I'm reading is actually an English translation from Egyptian Coptic. So I don't know how they would have pronounced it either. Just go ahead and cut me a little bit of slack. It's actually Ethiopian Coptic. And these are the names of their leaders. Samalazaz, their leader, Arakelba, yeah, Ramiel, Kokabel, Tamlil, Ramlil, Danel, Ezekiel, Barakajel, Azael, Amoros. I'm not going to read all these. This is just, everyone is now in pains listening to this. And all of the others together took that with them, took themselves wives, each one for himself. And they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them. And they taught them charms and enchantments and the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants.
Gerrit And they became pregnant and they bear giants whose height was 3000 Ls who consumed all the acquisition of men. And when they could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And so these are cannibalistic giants that are the offspring of angels and mortal women. And they began to sin against the birds and the beasts and the reptiles and the fish to devour one another's flesh and to drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them and bracelets and ornaments and the use of antimony and beautifying of the eyelids and all kinds of costly stones and of coloring tinctures.
Gerrit And there arose much godlessness and they committed fornication and they were let astray and became corrupt in all their ways. So this is, you know, after Adam and Eve, roughly in the time of Noah. I mean, back then, everybody's living to 900 years old. So it's, there's a lot of time that things can be going on. But during this, the time of Enoch, right, just following it, this claim that what happens is you have angels who rebel against God. They come down to earth and they fornicate or, you know, take wives of mortal women and they not only give birth to these monsters, to these, these giants, but they also then teach things like how to make swords and kill each other to the people. And they teach them about gold and silver and earrings and thinking that they're better than other people and teaching them fornication.
Gerrit So, so what you have is this, a, an origination story of wickedness.
Richard So, um, not, not everybody knows exactly what, uh, 3,000 L's is. Um, so it's, it's roughly, it's the number of times I've lost in church ball.
Gerrit Am I right?
Richard Well, it's, it's the, uh, I'll tell you what, if you had somebody that was 3,000 L's, I feel pretty confident that you would go undefeated in church ball.
Gerrit Um, how, how, how tall are they?
Richard Okay. So, so 3,000 L's is roughly 4,500 feet, which is essentially two Burj Khalifa towers.
Intro Tall.
Gerrit Okay. So there are giants who are larger than the tallest building on earth.
Richard It's roughly the size of Mount Garfield in New Hampshire.
Gerrit I compare most things to Mount Garfield.
Richard Well, I tried finding something that was comparable and that was the closest I got.
Gerrit We have an extensive listener base in New Hampshire, well known for its huge Latter-day Saint audience. And I'm sure that they're like, oh yes, it's clearly about culture.
Richard So you see somebody and they're like 6'10, 6'11, don't you dare call them a giant, unless they're twice the size of the world's tallest skyscraper. I'm not interested.
Gerrit Well, so the Book of Enoch goes on. Now, why do I share this? In part because I said one of the problems with Latter-day Saints today studying the apocryphal Book of Enoch, because of all the things in it that they like, because it's talking about the Second Coming, is right up front. We need to spend a lot of time on all the false doctrine that is in the Book of Enoch. And I'm not saying that there's not anything in it that's not true. What I am saying is a huge portion of the book is this claim that evil comes into the world because angels come down and commit fornication with earthly women. Now, now the idea that angels fall, okay, that's all right. We gotcha. We're okay on the idea that there's fallen angels.
Gerrit But that's where evil comes from is obviously not true. Now, now let me, let me just, you know, before we leave this, there is a very, you know, there's a biblical passage that this comes from. And it's actually one of those passages that Christian theologians have argued about for years about what does this mean? So if you go to Genesis chapter six, go to Genesis chapter six. It makes a reference that you can tell this is where the writers of the Apocryphal Book of Enoch, where they're expanding the story. Okay. And it came to pass that when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, and the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them, and they took them wives, all of which they chose.
Gerrit And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh, yet his days shall be 120 years. There were giants in the earth in those days. And also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare them children, the same became mighty men, which were of old men of renown. And when God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, and it repented the Lord that he made man on earth and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast and the creeping things and the fouls of the air, for it repented me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And so this is how Noah makes it out. Right.
Gerrit So you can see that there's... What does this mean? The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wise, which they all chose. Well, the Book of Enoch, like many apocryphal books, answers that question by explaining what it means. And it gives this explanation that a bunch of angels fell from heaven and took wives among mortal women and then taught mortals all kinds of evil. I mean, if you're wondering, how could the world become so evil that God has to destroy it with the flood because of all these fallen angels and their giant children that they're having? And, you know, the next chapter of the Book of Enoch actually goes into the fact that, you know, you see all the wickedness on the earth and the good angels, they see what's going on and they ask for the ability to stop it, right?
Gerrit Thou seest what Azazel has done, who have taught all unrighteousness on the earth. This is from the Book of Enoch, not Genesis, if you're wondering. They're like, I don't even see this in Genesis 6. Thou seest what Azazel has done, who taught all unrighteousness on the earth and revealed the eternal secrets of truth in the heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Shom-Lazaz, everyone knows Shom-Lazaz, to whom thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and they have slept with the women and defiled themselves and revealed to them all kinds of sins. So again, it's these fallen angels that are teaching mankind sinful activities. And the women have born giants and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying out, making sweet to the gates of heaven that their lamentations have ascended and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are rot on the earth.
Gerrit And so they are the ones who precipitate God telling these angels to go tell Noah, tell him in my name to hide thyself and reveal to him that the end is approaching. The whole earth will be destroyed and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for generations of the world. Okay, so this goes in then to the story of Noah, but with much more detail about the angels fighting and all of the things that are going on there. And this idea that the fallen angels had, that what that passage meant was that fallen angels had, you know, committed adultery with mortal women. It actually has a really long memory. And it's actually one of the ways that it shows that the Book of Enoch is in circulation in the early Christian church.
Gerrit Because if you go to these, if you go to some of these early Christian fathers, when they talk about this, they talk about it, essentially quoting the Book of Enoch, not quoting it, but taking that story as the explanation. Again, because Genesis gives you the hook, right? There's some kind of explanation going on there. What are the sons of God? And what does this mean that they went in among the daughters of men? And what does that mean? If you go to, you know, if you go to Clement in the early church fathers, he has a series of homilies. And one of them, Homily 8, talks about this, the cause of the fall of man. But they, because they at first had no experience of evils, being insensible to the gift of good things, were turned to ingratitude by abundance of food and luxuries, so that they even thought that there is no providence since they had not by previous labor got good things as the reward of righteousness, in as much as no one of them had fallen into any suffering or disease or any other necessity.
Gerrit So that's talking about Adam and Eve. Clement is arguing, and Clement is from the first century. He's one of the earliest Christian fathers. That the reason why they fell is because they, you know, the Garden of Eden was so nice that they forgot that they were staying as a guest at the Sandals Resort and essentially started to think that they were the Sandals Resort. That's essentially what Clement is saying, that they became covetous of these things that are just happening all around them. So that is usual for men afflicted on account of wicked transgression. They should look about for God who is able to heal them. But immediately after there, despite which preceded from fearlessness and secure luxury, a certain just punishment for them as following from a certain arranged harmony, removing them from good things as having hurt them and introducing evil things instead as advantageous.
Gerrit For the spirits who inhabit the heaven, the angels who dwell in the lowest region, being grieved at the ingratitude of men to God, ask that they might come into the life of men, that really becoming men, by more intercourse, they might convict those who had acted ungratefully towards him and might subject everyone to adequate punishment. When therefore, their petition was granted, they metamorphosed themselves into every nature, for being of a more godlike substance, they are able easily to assume any form. And so they became precious stones and goodly pearls, and the most beauteous purple and choice gold, and all matter that is held in its most esteem. And they fell into the hands of some, and to the bosoms of others, and they suffered themselves to be stolen by them.
Gerrit And they also changed themselves into beasts, and into reptiles, and fishes, and birds, and whatsoever they pleased. These things also the poets among yourselves, by reason of fearlessness, sing as they befell, attributing to one of the many and diverse doings of all. But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them, and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living wholly, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust. And being brought under its subjection, they fell into cohabitation with women, and being involved with them, and sunk in defilement and all together emptied of their first power were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature.
Gerrit Their members turned away from their fiery substance for the fire itself being extinguished by the weight of lust and the changed and changed into flesh, they trod the impious path downward, for they themselves being fettered with the bonds of flesh were constrained and strongly bound, wherefore they have no more been able to ascend to the heavens. So, I mean, this is a story you don't find in the Bible, right?
Richard No, you don't.
Gerrit Clement is teaching that the angels saw how wicked men were, essentially how ungrateful they were. You guys think this is all just your stuff? No, God gave you this stuff. And so they're like, look, let us transform ourselves because we're not people. Again, angels aren't people. Let's transform ourselves into like sapphires and like good food and stuff. And we'll be able to, like, infiltrate humanity to help show them how covetous and unholy they are. But they fell victim to one of the classic plunder. The first is never get involved in a land war in Asia. The second, and only slightly less well known, is this. Never transform yourself into fallen man because after that, you're going to be a fallen man. And that's essentially, they are wicked. And so they assume the same fallen nature and they're unable to come back from it.
Gerrit But I share that to show that this idea that angels, Richard, are you okay?
Richard That was so good. That was so well done. And the land war in Asia was just, it was beautiful.
Gerrit But so these early writers, they appear to kind of take what's being said in the Book of Enoch as the truth, as this interpretation of Genesis. Justin Martyr. We don't know Justin's actual name, but he eventually gets killed. And so they call him Justin Martyr. We know his name is Justin, but we call him Justin Martyr because, I mean, he is what happens to him, essentially. He gets murdered for being a Christian. But this is what he says in his second apology that he writes. The angels transgressed this appointment and they were captivated by love of women and begat children who are those that are called demons. So here, now the argument is, it's not giants that are being produced. It's actual demons that are like half mortal because they were part angel and part mortal.
Gerrit They are called demons besides they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices and incense and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions. And among men, they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds and all wickedness. You'll notice how close that is to the Book of Enoch, right? Here's Justin Martyr. Justin Martyrs, you know, in the early second Christian century, early Christian, he is explaining this introduction of evil into the world by these demon children that are the children of mortal humans and fallen angels. Once also, the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them, who did these things and the men and women and cities and nations, when they related and ascribed them to God himself and to those who were accounted to be his offspring and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of their offspring, for whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children by that name, they called them.
Gerrit So he's actually explaining the reason why pagans believe that there were multiple gods is because these fallen angels were acting as if they had power and they had some kind of divinity. Now, I know we're out of time. How many more early Christian fathers should we quote?
Richard I don't know. He played a lot of the hits.
Gerrit I mean, I've only really gotten Clement and Justin Martyr.
Richard So what did Origins say?
Gerrit I mean, Origins, you know, he's a long ways away. If we go to all the way to Origin, I'm actually not even sure if Origin does talk about it. I mean, I know that Irenaeus talks about it.
Richard Okay. All right. I'm a big fan of him. Yeah.
Gerrit Well, we are. So you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to leave everyone hanging on, what does Irenaeus say? And everyone's going to be all weak. They're going to be like, I don't know, what does Irenaeus say? I mean, he clearly says something. But what does Irenaeus say? Do you think many of our listeners are just on the edge of their seat waiting for Irenaeus?
Richard I think so. Irenaeus sounds a lot like the Simpsons version of the Planet of the Apes musical, where they, Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius.
Gerrit Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius. Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius. By the way, I should share that friends of the show, a friend of the show, Gerrit, sent me a text that he was with Jasmine and Neil, also friends of the show.
Richard Oh, yeah, of course.
Gerrit And they were talking, they were trying to remember who the actor was in a certain show. And they were, you know, you know how it is when you're trying to remember the name of somebody, you know, kind of like an Inspector Clouseau type of thing, where you don't really know the name and you're like, was it so-and-so? Apparently, while Jasmine and Neil were trying to figure out this name, you know, Neil was like, you know, is it, the actor's name was Dylan McDermott, right? And the, what came to his mouth was Gerrit McDermott. And Jasmine said to him, that sounds like a Timu Church Historian. And you know, which is funny.
Gerrit Also, I already am a Timu. What's below Timu? I mean, where am I at when it comes to Church Histories? But yes, I know that everyone wants to, I mean, look, I want to talk to you about Irenaeus. If that doesn't bring you back, I want to talk to you about Tertullian.
Richard Okay. Well, there you go.
Gerrit Yeah. And I think people like Tertullian just because he sounds like turtle.
Richard But by the way, Gerrit, so two people that most people haven't heard, we're going to hear what they have to say about this. But one thing we forgot to mention and I feel like it's really a good plan to make announcements at after an hour and six minutes.
Gerrit We already said that we're done.
Richard Yes. But we need to do better on the next free episode, but the monthly newsletter actually is happening now. The first one went out for the not friend of the show, but like the reason the show exists, it's Brady, puts that together from transcripts and show notes.
Gerrit I think he's an enemy of the show now.
Richard Enemy of the show. You know what?
Gerrit We need another category of listener. We've got friend of the show, we've got litner, and we need enemy of the show.
Richard Well, he's enemy of Gerrit because it's the reason that the podcast exists, is Brady. So we're setting the transcripts over, he's putting that together in the monthly newsletter that you can subscribe to in the sub stack. I think that the last one just dropped for January, dropped in February, that had all the stuff for the January episodes, including the premium stuff, information on the premium episodes. So that's going to be coming out every month versus the last time we posted one, which was when Clinton was president. So it's been a minute.
Gerrit We have not been very good on that, but we're going to try to at least give highlights of, you know, if you're thinking, why haven't I listened to that podcast in a while? I'll only listen if there's something good. Are they quoting Irenaeus? Oh, they are. And then they get back on. That's what I assume will help with that. Although a lot of people apparently just sign up for literally any newsletter, because when the newsletter went out, we got emails from people like, what is this? What's going on? Why am I getting this? Like, we didn't like just go online and buy your email. Although now that I say that, maybe, maybe that's what we'll do, you know. But so that, you know, Brady will be sending that to kind of give people an idea. And also one other announcement is we still have a couple of slots left on the Missouri Nauvoo Tour for this year because we had someone who canceled. So if you were hoping to get on and it's been sold out for a year, so you couldn't, and there are some spots available now because we had a family that had to cancel.
Gerrit And so if you wanted to go, you know, go to the website and sign up for that. But thank you so much for listening. I promise. Well, I can't promise anything. We will talk about more about this, but also we're going to get into what Joseph Smith has to say about this.
Richard Well, I actually care about that one.
Gerrit What if I led with that? Instead of Tertullian, we're going to talk about Joseph Smith.
Richard Yeah, I feel like that's way better.
Gerrit Okay. So forget Tertullian, forget Ambrose, I didn't even tell you Ambrose, but I was going to sneak Ambrose in there. I was going to sneak in Lactantius. I was going to sneak in Clement of Alexandria, which is a different Clement.
Richard That snicker was unintentional. For whatever reason, boy, you get two Clements in there. You get Clement, you get Clement of Alexandria. Clement of Alexandria has got to be frustrated that he's Clement of Alexandria and the other one's just Clement, right?
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, what I mean, Alexandra was a big deal though back then. So it would be like, you know, people who are from like New York City are like super proud of themselves. Yeah.
Richard It's like you have share and share from Des Moines. Like, I don't know.
Gerrit Yeah, but it's different because it, what if it's share and share from New York City? Cause Alexandria is such a big deal.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Right. So like, like, you know, everybody knows someone who's from a place that they're so proud of it that they talk about it all the time of where they're from, because they think it makes them better. Right. I mean, like people from Idaho, for instance, you know, I, I, you know, when I meet people and they're like, Oh, you know, are you from Utah? And I'm like, well, actually I'm from Idaho, which doesn't impress anybody. No, no, for whatever reason, my Idaho sensibilities have to say, Oh, so you live in Idaho? I haven't lived in Idaho in 30 years, but I am from there. And I'm going to keep saying it. So we will have multiple early Christian fathers. We will talk more about the Apocryphal Book of Enoch and how it relates to Joseph Smith's Book of Moses and the other teachings of Joseph Smith on Enoch in our next episode. Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

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You're just trying to find a Book of Mormon model that works for you.

GerritBanter

The prophet of the Lord said that you are, you know, a tool of the devil. Congratulations. You're, you've done it.

RichardBanter

You can't swing a dead cat in Missoula without hitting several babushkas.

RichardBanter

If you haven't listened to our latest premium episode, in passing, John C. Bennett came up and I lost it for 15 minutes.

GerritBanter

I mean, just if you're starting to put air quotes around nouns, that's a real problem.

GerritBanter

There is a gigantic divide between what is taught in divinity school as doctrine and what culturally people want to believe and think.

GerritInsight

And then this thing that didn't actually happen but was represented in the book starts to be a part of their testimony, even though it didn't actually happen.

GerritInsight

So you see somebody and they're like 6'10, 6'11, don't you dare call them a giant, unless they're twice the size of the world's tallest skyscraper.

RichardBanter

We need to spend a lot of time on all the false doctrine that is in the Book of Enoch.

GerritInsight

Never transform yourself into fallen man because after that, you're going to be a fallen man.

GerritBanter

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The Chosen's Gethsemane scene shows evangelicals now accept that angels can be people who once lived on earth.
Because Jude quotes it, the Book of Enoch is reliable scripture we should study for doctrine.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

A moving scene in a show or novel is not doctrine; be careful not to let something that never happened become part of your testimony.

Latter-day Saints understand angels as beings tied to God's family, while traditional Christians believe angels were created and are a different kind of being.

Jews and Christians faced a hard question the ancient pagans didn't: if there's one all-powerful, all-good God, where does evil come from? The Book of Enoch tried to answer it with fallen angels and giants.

Early Christian writers like Clement and Justin Martyr borrowed the Book of Enoch's story, which shows how widely it was known.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Live from YumaRichard pours one out for a vanished brisket place, then heads to Kyoto to keep looking for Book of Mormon lands (1:31, 2:04, 2:37).
Consistently wrong picksPrerecording means predicting games already played and still being wrong (3:20, 4:07).
Russian speakers in MontanaTruck stops in Butte and babushkas in Missoula (7:06, 7:27).
Elder Abel's riseRussian-speaking missionaries know him, and Gerrit promotes him to Pontiff Abel (10:42, 11:03).
The John C. Bennett buttonGerrit lost it for 15 minutes on the last premium episode, like Commissioner Dreyfus hearing 'Clouseau' (11:51, 12:16, 18:25).
Hip hop referencesJeff's subject line, 'Don't call it a comeback,' plays to the hosts' 80s and 90s rap (14:24, 14:46).
Not in labor, not premiumJeff's email shouldn't count, but it does (17:51, 17:55).
The crack research staffRichard converts 3,000 ells to two Burj Khalifas and Mount Garfield, New Hampshire (45:25, 45:45).
CliffhangersWill listeners come back for Irenaeus? Then Tertullian is promised, then dropped for Joseph Smith (1:03:03, 1:05:07, 1:08:31).
Enemy of the showBrady, who runs the new monthly newsletter, is the reason the show exists, so he's demoted to enemy (1:06:16, 1:06:21).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 1-36) and how it retells Genesis 6 (39:33).
How early Christian fathers like Clement, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus read the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6 (53:15).
Christian debates over when angels were created, and the Latter-day Saint teaching that angels are resurrected beings (19:54).
The Rabshakeh's speech outside Jerusalem in 2 Kings 18 and the ancient 'my god can beat up your god' view (35:02).
SOT Litner · S6E8.